Author Topic: Mossie Kills  (Read 1380 times)

Offline clerick

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
Mossie Kills
« on: June 17, 2011, 01:57:16 AM »
I was watching a show about the Mossie today and they claimed that the Mossie was so tough to shoot down that German pilots were awarded two kills if they got one.  Is that true?

Offline Rob52240

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3770
      • My AH Films
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2011, 02:14:11 AM »
NO!

No self respecting German would ever claim 2 kills for 1 aircraft shot down.  The German brain is far too logical and methodical for this kind of malarkey.

I think we can probably file this one along side all the nicknames that the victors tend to claim the defeated had given  to the victor's' more devastating war implements.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2011, 03:12:39 AM »
Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.

Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood?   :rolleyes:
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Rob52240

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3770
      • My AH Films
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2011, 03:13:55 AM »
So they didn't actually shoot down the entire Luftwaffe twice?

Is this why only "confirmed kills" count now?
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline clerick

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1742
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2011, 03:25:19 AM »
Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.

Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood?   :rolleyes:

Nope, no mention of radar absorption.  Was mostly a lot of interviews with pilots and descriptions of some of the missions they flew as well as a brief history.  It was just that one "fact" that made me  :huh

It's why i asked it here.

:EDIT:

Ran across this.

For decorations, the Germans had a points system: one for a fighter, two for a twin-engine bomber, three for a four-engine bomber; night victories counted double; Mosquitoes counted double, due to how difficult targets they were. See Johnson, J. E. "Johnnie", Group Captain, RAF. Wing Leader (Ballantine, 1967), p.264.

I had never heard any of this.  Still seems a bit fishy.  Does that mean a 38 counted as two?  :D
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 03:39:48 AM by clerick »

Offline Rob52240

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3770
      • My AH Films
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2011, 03:44:45 AM »
I stand corrected.

Mossies were as invisible to radar as corvettes are to police radar.  Neither have bodies made of radio-reflecting material but they both have lots of metal under the skin that will reflect the radar energy.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2011, 04:06:46 AM »
I stand corrected.

Mossies were as invisible to radar as corvettes are to police radar.  Neither have bodies made of radio-reflecting material but they both have lots of metal under the skin that will reflect the radar energy.
The radar invisibility is a myth.  Mosquitoes were just as visible to radar as any other aircraft their size.  They were however so fast in the cruise that intercepting them was very difficult, particularly given that they operated at night most of the time.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Rob52240

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3770
      • My AH Films
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2011, 04:10:34 AM »
That's what I said, the metal parts under the skin reflect radar waves.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2011, 06:41:59 AM »
Pretty certain the "two kills" chestnut is a myth - not sure how many points were awarded for Mossies, never read/heard anything in German to describe how points were calculated.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Scotty55OEFVet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 628
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2011, 09:30:06 AM »
Isn't that a fancy way to define over-claiming of kills?
The 8th airforce bomber gunners claimed to have shot down the entire Luftwaffe twice.

Did that show also say that the mossie was invisible to radar because it was made out of wood?   :rolleyes:

Lol, I have read an article about this! Seems that all those Supporting Fighters on all those long Bomber Sorties to and from Germany and other targets in Nazi Occupied Europe didnt shoot down a single German Aircraft because, as the whole of the US 8th AF Wasit, Bellly, and Tail gunners shot down all those LW Fighters lol. Isn't war funny???
"War can only be abolished through war...in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun."



RedDevil

Offline AWwrgwy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5478
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2011, 12:46:10 PM »


Ran across this.

For decorations, the Germans had a points system: one for a fighter, two for a twin-engine bomber, three for a four-engine bomber; night victories counted double; Mosquitoes counted double, due to how difficult targets they were. See Johnson, J. E. "Johnnie", Group Captain, RAF. Wing Leader (Ballantine, 1967), p.264.


You get your Iron Cross sooner for shooting down bombers than for shooting down fighters. You still haven't shot down more planes.


wrongway
71 (Eagle) Squadron
"THAT"S PAINT!!"

"If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."
- General Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2011, 05:16:40 PM »
That's what I said, the metal parts under the skin reflect radar waves.

     Since radar can see clouds, I don't think wood would be an overwhelming challenge.  Just FYI, I have personally
locked onto clouds and automagically tracked them at least 20 miles out with a 1970s era fire control radar.
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline STEELE

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 541
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2011, 05:50:41 PM »
You get your Iron Cross sooner for shooting down bombers than for shooting down fighters. You still haven't shot down more planes.


wrongway
right, a mossie counted as four single engine fighters. (2 engines + double points)
A p61 would also count 4, 2 engines at night.
The Kanonenvogel had 6 rounds per pod, this is not even close to being open for debate.

Offline Pigslilspaz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3378
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2011, 06:01:03 PM »
right, a mossie counted as four single engine fighters. (2 engines + double points)
A p61 would also count 4, 2 engines at night.
And a Lanc would be 6 (Mostly night raids)

Quote from: Superfly
The rules are simple: Don't be a dick.
Quote from: hitech
It was skuzzy's <----- fault.
Quote from: Pyro
We just witnessed a miracle and I want you to @#$%^& acknowledge it!

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: Mossie Kills
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2011, 06:13:00 PM »
Ruy Horta seems to have good info:

http://rhorta.home.xs4all.nl/jgscor.htm
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB