Did the Navy win the Battle of Britain?

[oakranger]

Got this from another fourm.  Intresting reading but i can agree on all of it.  Enjoy!

This theory is being touted as the latest controversial bit of revisionism - below is the Daily Telegraph's report on it:

The Battle of Britain was not won by the RAF but by the Royal Navy, military historians have concluded, provoking outrage among the war's surviving fighter pilots.

Challenging the "myth" that Spitfires and Hurricanes held off the German invaders in 1940, the monthly magazine History Today has concluded that it was the might of the Navy that stood between Britain and Nazi occupation.

advertisementThe view is backed by three leading academics who are senior military historians at the Joint Service Command Staff College teaching the future admirals, generals and air marshals.

They contend that the sheer numbers of destroyers and battleships in the Channel would have obliterated any invasion fleet even if the RAF had lost the Battle of Britain.

The idea that a "handful of heroes saved these islands from invasion" was nothing more than a "perpetuation of a glorious myth," the article suggests.

"Many still prefer to believe that in the course of that summer a few hundred outnumbered young men so outfought a superior enemy as solely to prevent a certain invasion of Britain. Almost none of which is true," reports Brian James, the author.

Dr Andrew Gordon, the head of maritime history at the staff college, said it was "hogwash" to suggest that Germany failed to invade in 1940 "because of what was done by the phenomenally brave and skilled young men of Fighter Command".

"The Germans stayed away because while the Royal Navy existed they had not a hope in hell of capturing these islands. The Navy had ships in sufficient numbers to have overwhelmed any invasion fleet - destroyers' speed alone would have swamped the barges by their wash."

Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".

While admitting it was an "extremely sensitive subject", Dr Christina Goulter, the air warfare historian, supported the argument. "While it would be wrong to deny the contribution of Fighter Command, I agree largely that it was the Navy that held the Germans from invading," she said.

"As the German general Jodl put it, so long as the British Navy existed, an invasion would be to send 'my troops into a mincing machine'." Any challenge to the long-held theory that the 2,600 pilots of Fighter Command defeated the might of Germany would be subject to "more than a modicum of hostility", she added.

The Battle of Britain was "a sacrosanct event" for the RAF, like Waterloo for the Army and Trafalgar for the Navy.

It inspired Churchill to say: "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."

Although six destroyers were lost during the evacuation of Dunkirk in May 1940 this was due to them being stationary as they picked up troops.

Tackling capital ships would have been an even greater task because at the time the Luftwaffe, unlike the Japanese during the destruction of the fleet at Singapore, did not have armour-piercing bombs, the article says.

It has been argued that German minefields strung across the Dover Straits would have prevented the Home Fleet, based at Scapa Flow, from destroying slow troop barges.

But Dr Gordon disputed this saying that Britain had 52 minesweepers and 16 minesweeping trawlers arrayed against four German minelayers.

The disparity between the navies was huge with Britain having 36 destroyers close by and a similar number two days away. The Navy also had five capital ships on hand, whereas the Kriegsmarine had lost or had damaged their battleships.

"Anyway, in an emergency, the Royal Navy steams straight through minefields as they did when pursuing the Scharnhorst," Dr Gordon said. "They have a drill, following line astern. 'Each ship can sweep one mine' is the rather grim joke."

Can you imagine the RN's targets? An invasion fleet of Rhine barges, moving at about two knots over the water, with a freeboard of a few feet. . . an absolute field day for our navy. So that was the nightmare for the German navy. They knew it just couldn't happen."

Prof Gary Sheffield, the JSCSC's leading land warfare historian, said while some Germans might have got ashore it would have been near impossible for them to be re-supplied with the Navy so close by.

The article also argues that while the RAF had 644 fighters to the Luftwaffe's 725 at the beginning of the battle by October 1940 Britain was far out-producing the enemy.

It also said that after the defeat in France in early 1940 it was vital for Britain to have a victory to reassure the public it was winning the war and the RAF fighter pilots were an obvious choice. "In 1940, the total acceptance of the story's simple broad-brush strokes was very necessary," the historian Richard Overy said.

Dr Gordon added: "The RAF's was a substitute victory - a substitute for the certain victory over Sealion, had the Germans been mad enough to attempt invasion."

[fudgums]

Agreed to an extent, but we will never know.

[USRanger]

Makes sense.

[prowl3r]

actually the raf did win it by denying the nazis air superiority. ir the air war had been won the british would have been dispached in the same manner we got the japanese navy (subs and planes) then the germans could invade. that is why the allies worked so hard on the luftwaffe before normandy otherwise no invsion would be possible. no war has been won since ww1 without air supiority.

[Vulcan]

Sounds like bollocks to me. If the RAF went down the LW would've bombed the snot out of the british ports, fuel supplies etc. It would've been a domino effect.

[Wayout]

Even if the RAF had been defeated the fleet would still have been able to defeat any invasion because fast ships at sea could easily manoeuvre and "were pretty safe from air attack".

Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

[Vudu15]

Like to see those DDs stop Paratroops.....the RAF kept em from takin the skies over Britain. which I think in turn stopped the invasion idea cold.

[badhorse]

It was my understanding that Britian was actually losing the battle until one night Berlin was accidental bombed. This threw Hitler into a furry. He ordered Goering to start bombing British cities.  This switch from targeting the British RAF to the cities gave the British time to build back up the forces needed to successfully defend the island.
Also the 109's had something like 20 minutes time to fight before they had to brake off and RTB. When a German was shot down, he was out of the fight for good, but a British pilot would be soon back in the air.
Anyway, this may or may not have been the case.

[Saxman]

Actually, for political reasons Hitler ordered that the Luftwaffe avoid British population centers. One night a lost bomber crew accidentally bombed a city (I don't think it was London, but can't remember off-hand which city it was). In retaliation the RAF bombed Berlin, which set off Hitler.

[Rino]

Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

     Was thinking the exact same thing, great minds 

[Delirium]

The RAF used the Navy, or at least the merchant Navy as a target in the early stages of the war. Over the channel itself, the air superiority was so much in favor of the Germans (particularly because fuel wasn't as much an issue) that the Brits all but stopped defending the shipping in the channel.

The standard Navy wasn't much more than a target for aircraft, I guess Billy Mitchell was right.

[Karnak]

The RAF won the battle because it was the RAF that fought the battle.  The RN's existence made the battle essentially unwinable for the Germans though.  I recall hearing that when the battle is gamed out, even if the Luftwaffe "defeats" RAF Fighter Command, the remaining Spits and Hurris are then pulled back out of Luftwaffe range.  When the invasion happens the RN, covered by the remaining fighters of the RAF, slams the door shut within 24 hours of landing.  Within two weeks of landing the British are inventorying their new "Made in Germany" equipment as the Germans, out of food and fuel, are forced to surrender.  Yes, the RN takes losses, but not nearly enough to stop it from accomplishing its task.  What happens to the German troops caught in the channel on the barges by battleships doesn't even bear thinking about.

Try telling that to the men of the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse.

That was the Japanese, not the Germans.  The Japanese were far, far better trained for attacks against ships.  In the early part of the war Vals had a 70+% hit rate on ships.  Ju87s had less than half of that at Dunkirk.  If the Luftwaffe were able to "borrow" the Imperial Japanese Navy's bomber pilots and crews it might be able stop the Royal Navy.

[oakranger]

It was my understanding that Britian was actually losing the battle until one night Berlin was accidental bombed. This threw Hitler into a furry. He ordered Goering to start bombing British cities.  This switch from targeting the British RAF to the cities gave the British time to build back up the forces needed to successfully defend the island.
Also the 109's had something like 20 minutes time to fight before they had to brake off and RTB. When a German was shot down, he was out of the fight for good, but a British pilot would be soon back in the air.
Anyway, this may or may not have been the case.

I did not know that Berlin was accidentally bombed by the Brits. I thought it was the Lufft that accidentally bombed London so Brite return the favore.   That is when Hitler order  Goering to start bombing Cities.

[Vulcan]

Actually, for political reasons Hitler ordered that the Luftwaffe avoid British population centers. One night a lost bomber crew accidentally bombed a city (I don't think it was London, but can't remember off-hand which city it was). In retaliation the RAF bombed Berlin, which set off Hitler.

yup it was this. And IIRC the reason the LW dropped on a brit city (might've been london) was that the RAF were jamming up the radio beacons the LW were using for direction finding/dropping (the bombers would follow 1 beacon as a path, when they intersected a second beacon they'd drop).

[guncrasher]

nope British bombed German city (not sure which one) they apologize, but next couple of days they bombed another German city by accident again, which set off the germane and they started bombing British cities.  which was a good thing because it stopped the planes from bombing the airfields.  so they could take off and defend England.

main thing is that not just the RAF or the e royal navy defeated the Germans but it was a combination of both.  if it hadnt been a navy they would have invaded, I am pretty sure the af would not have stopped all the ships. otoh if there wasnt a navy to keep some bombs and ships  busy there would have been more bombs over England.

semp