JABO.. still tryin.. still dyin.

[Hangtime]

1st off.. Rockets. Pretty aint they?

What else they good for?? (film requested)

2nd off.. JABO fighter. I'm told it's .."possible. Just difficult."

Mayhaps a better description would be "Maybe. But not likely."

I wanna be convinced this is do-able.. really! I've tried all the variations. In brand W it was 'slightly difficult, practice required'.. here it seems to me to be 'suicide; try it and die'. I can't find one system that works.. even once. I've tried all I know, and I am stymied and need to be educated. There's gotta be a way to attack an ack, and live. I hope.  (film requested)

I guess I'm finding the current stalemate between the strategic and the tactical elements of the sim irksome., so to speak. I'd like to see fighters take a larger role in the strategic element of the game...  But maybe my take on it is wrong. I don't wanna mess up the sim.. is this the real question?

What do you guys think?

Me; Id just like to come roaring in on a base ack with an F4U; spewing rockets or droppin eggs.. and live.  

Hang (FILM!)


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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[juzz]

Of course JABO is possible, but we just need the right plane for the job.

A-10 Warthog.

It can out-range the "realistic" acks with it's 30mm cannon.  

If it does get hit, it's heavy armour and multiple systems will give a small degree protection from the "realistic" acks.

We have LGB's being dropped from the B-17 and B-26, so there's no issue with the A-10 having uberbombs or uberaiming abilities from the Pave Penny system.

[Saintaw]

True Hangtime, I asked yesterday evening if this was possible, but had only negative answers back...and indeed, I would love to get those guns down myself without being a Kamikase...

Maybe the Rockets were only implemented to be able to intercept the future ground troups ?

(Saintaw puts his cloaking device back on "ON" and dissapears in the dark...)

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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
 http://www.wardogs.org/
"Firepower Mate, that is what separates the men from the boys..."

[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Soulyss]

I have no idea if this thought will work or not as I haven't had the guts to try it yet.  But anyone think it would be possible for a two people to get those acks down? Have one person go roaring through at a high angle to draw the ack while the other dives in with rockets or bombs to knock it out?  Like I said I've never ever tried it but I've been thinking about it.  Might be worth a shot.  

[Heater]

As for rockets,

I use em for acks & in a Vulch they work great for the one pass kill's on the Buffs on the runway, Hell I even shot one at HT in a F4 and managed to kill my self as it HIT HT's right wing (I was his wingman at the time)
If you use the default gunsight then line up at 400 out with the bottom of the gunsight just above the target.

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!!! Heater !!!
Shit Happens All The Time

If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."

[eskimo]

In brand W, I could shut down all of the ack (4) at a small field in less than 1 min in a ME 110 G-2 with 2 X 1K bombs and the 30 mm's about 60% of the time (40% of the time it would get me).  In this game, by the time I see the ack, I have 2 to 5 seconds to live.  As much as I love Jabo sorties, I just don't even bother in AH.  It would be nice if there were something in this game that could be Jabo'd.
eskimo

[Fishu]

One important thing to remember; Never EVER head straight into ack for longer than split second.
If fast speed, head bit off the ack... but if slower speed, use elevator to change your heading all the time slightly

[funked]

The acks are way too good.  This needs to be fixed before I spend a single red cent on this game.

[Hangtime]

Well.. I suspect what we have here is the developers intent to establish a play balance..  those big exciting furballs that develop around a contested field (guessing here) are of paramount importance to him.

And; I'm betting he feels that having acks diminished will, in his opinion, diminish those furballs. (still guessing)

The mission; gentlemen, is to convince him that JABO will improve play balance. We can gripe and whine all we want; doubt it will change anything tho... we gotta go at this one from a different aspect, for a change.  

Rather; we need to outline for him ways to get the JABO into the sim; without taking playbalance out. (tho I'm clueless on this one myself)

I think that beta is the place to try this kind of stuff.. and we're about outta beta!

How about changing ack properties on some; but not all fields; initially?? As a test? Dunno if this is possible.

Suggetions??

Hang

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[AKDejaVu]

I think Hangtime is correct.

What doesn't need to happen is to make it where it is possible to take down all defenses at a base with a single fighter.  It is bad enough now with the b26...

I'm all for JABO... I just believe it should be used on other strategic targets.  If those targets don't exist yet.. then maybe we need some ideas for what would be considered a worthwile target.  BTW.. taking out the acks is difficult, but taking out the other structures on a base is not.  I believe this to be the way it should be.

If you want to practice dropping eggs.. try for the tower.  Its strategically important and much easier to down.  Try for the fuel dumps too... also strategic and much easier to down.  I'm sorry that it is no longer possible to shut a base down with 1 fighter... but that's the way it should be.

AKDejaVu

[MiG Eater]

I'd like to see more targets suitable for fighter-bombers like depots, roads, ammo dumps, trains, rail yards etc.  It seems there is currently a good mix of challenge for both sides during a base capture, though the B-26's have givin a nice edge for the attackers.    

What the fighter bomber pilots need is an effective way to employ the air to ground weapons.  I've found that vertical dives produce the most accuracy for bomb drops and rocket launches.  I've also been trying to get a feel for the range at which a rocket can be launched so the gravity drop doesn't put the aim point below the nose.  In most cases (speed, dive angle, airplane type), attempting this puts you well within the range of ack.  Traditionally, dive bombing attacks were made at precise speed, dive angle and drop altitude even up to present day in airplanes with fixed gunsights.  Has anybody done testing to see what works?   I recall seeing the dive bomb tables from an F-4C Phantom dash 1 manual and it was quite exhaustive in its coverage.  Wondering if dive bombing tables from the actual airplanes we are flying would work in AH...  

MiG

[funked]

Hangtime, I hope what you say isn't true.

I think furballs near fields are stupid.  It brings into play the instant respawn, and makes it more like Quake than WW2.

Put some realistic ack on all those complexes, and people will either be defending them or attacking them.  This moves the fight away from the fields and removes the respawn BS.

And yes I agree about Jabos, we need them.  Also we need more uses for low level bombers and attack aircraft.  Right now these have no role, because the ack is so good.  The only safe way to take out anything is with the high altitude laser norden which is probably the second cheesiest thing in the game next to the respawn!

[Hangtime]

>>Hangtime, I hope what you say isn't true.<<

Me too! I've asked before for a reason why the sim is set up as it is, and without an answer, all I can do is speculate.

What we have to do is demonstrate that we're willing to accomodate the playbalance.. if thats in fact the reason. It would be nice to know tho..

Why is it the way it is?

And; if it is practical to attack an base with JABO fighters; HOW. (FILM!)

Hang

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[BaneX]

Actually Hangtime, it is possible to bomb ack in a fighter and live. I've done it several times and will have to film another one for you. Now granted I don't come away unscathed, but I do live and get away most of the time. As for killing it with rockets, I've never had any luck.

I totally agree with the need for fighter bomber uses. The idea of depots and railyards was excellent. Hopefully, we'll see more strategic elements added as things progress.

BaneX
=357th Pony Express=

[juzz]

There's one thing I have noticed about acks - they can't hit you if you keep moving in their "gunsight".

Ie: They seem to calculate the lead angle based on your vector at the instant they fire. By the time the round gets to you, you had better of moved from that vector or you will get hit.

If you fly past an ack, they won't hit you unless you appear steady in their "gunsight" for a moment. Thus constantly changing direction(Eg: turning) will make them miss.

I haven't figured out how to use this weakness in an attack though.