P51 colides with Skyraider

[Tyrannis]

Painted.  The 78th FG was based at Duxford.

so what became of the original big beautiful doll?

[eagl]

not only did this happen, but a DR1 replica flippedon the same day. And then another DR1 replica crashed the day prior in New York.

It appears to have been the p-51's fault. His turn was very shallow. 

Deconfliction from other formations is the flight lead's job, and it looked to me like the P-51 floated the turn a bit to keep from cutting off the 4th member of the formation ahead of them.  Deconfliction from other aircraft in the formation is the wingman's job, and the skyraider was the wingman in this situation.

Still, the breakout they were using is pretty non-standard and leads to a number of potential hazards.  First, the flight lead has to climb to deconflict from the wingmen prior to turning.  The wingmen then spend a certain amount of time looking everywhere EXCEPT where lead is going, and then have to turn to follow lead.  That turn MUST NOT OCCUR unless lead (or the preceding wingman) is in sight.

It is possible that the skyraider pilot may have even been trying to rejoin on an aircraft from the preceding formation.  In any case, lead's job is to navigate and clear for the formation as a whole, and the wingman's job is to be in position and not run into lead.  If the P-51 decided to flip out and fly to Australia, #2's job is to be in position, end of story.  Lead is causal in that sort of accident only if he either places his wingman in an impossible position, or continues to maneuver in an unpredictable manner and/or fail to direct altitude deconfliction when the wingman calls "blind".  In this case, lead made his breakout, turned, and appeared to be maneuvering in a manner that was fairly predictable (following the previous formation).  #2 made his breakout, and ran into lead.  The possibility that lead was maneuvering to follow a preceding formation and the equally likely possibility that #2 was trying to rejoin on the wrong aircraft, does not change the fact that the wingman pretty obviously failed in his 2 primary responsibilities of being in position and not running into lead.

This stuff is formation 101, the bare basics that anyone flying formation in front of a crowd needs to know. 

[Kazaa]

I wonder why the P51D pilot bailed out? It looked to be in a flyable condition to me.

http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

[Golfer]

I wonder why the P51D pilot bailed out? It looked to be in a flyable condition to me.

http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

Because he had a really good reason to.  You don't jump out of an airplane at 800' without one.

[RTHolmes]

I wonder why the P51D pilot bailed out? It looked to be in a flyable condition to me.

http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk/

looks to me like he lost elevator control.

[Kazaa]

looks to me like he lost elevator control.

Do you think the elevator's control cable may have been cut in the collision? It didn't look like the P51D lost any major parts - It was flying staight and level until the pilot bailed.

[RTHolmes]

the impact was hard enough to shear off the skyraider's wingtip, it could have dented the pony's tail enough to trap the cables or damage/dislodge the pulleys inside.

cant see the rudder moving but I assume that was working because he managed to instinctively straighten it up from a ?30^o yaw, which also suggests he still had power. the pony must have been really floating at that point, he certainly spent a few seconds after releasing the canopy trying to recover it. it may be that he judged he just wasnt high enough to recover it safely.

the CAA accident report will certainly be interesting reading.

[Puma44]

The Skyraider pilot has big balls of steel to stay in the pilots seat after the mid air collision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_A4xdGFXoE

He obviously had acceptable control of the aircraft and made the judgement call to land safely versus the risk of a stepping over the side.  It also appears he hit the Mustang, possibly losing sight momentarily in his more aggressive pitch up while viewing the pony's thin profile from behind.

[MiloMorai]

The rudder cables were cut for sure. The elevator cables are higher in the fuselage. They might or might not have been cut.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Do you think the elevator's control cable may have been cut in the collision? It didn't look like the P51D lost any major parts - It was flying staight and level until the pilot bailed.

He jettisoned the canopy immediately after the collision, before the plane stabilised. To me it looks like he might have just paniced and started bailout immediately despite having airworthy airplane. The mustang flew just fine untill the moment he obviously left off the controls.

Can't blame him though, saving the plane must have been the last thing on his to-do list when colliding at 800ft in a vintage bird.

[Puma44]

he might have just paniced and started bailout immediately despite having airworthy airplane

...and you know that how?

As the pilot flying the aircraft, he is the only one who knows at the moment whether it's airworthy or not.  At the low altitude, it's not panic, it is leaving an unflyable aircraft with a sense of urgency and survival.  Just because the Pony flew in a stable manner doesn't mean it was controllable by the pilot.

[flight17]

The rudder cables were cut for sure. The elevator cables are higher in the fuselage. They might or might not have been cut.

and you are basing that on what?

from the latest video posted, if you pause it anywhere between 1:09 and 1:11 and look at it frame by frame, you can see that the wingtip of the A1 caught the P-51 just in front of the entire tail assembly (You can see the horizontal stablizer infront of the A1's wing)


Also this pic, i believe you can see the dent that was put in the p-51's fuselage from the impact, but it does not look like its a hole, just a dent.


After watching this last video, i agree with the people who said the pilot bailed from a flyable plane. As soon as the yaw stopped from the collision, he had it nearly straight and level. It didnt start diving down until he bailed out. Like wise, i cant blame him though.

[EskimoJoe]

and you are basing that on what?

from the latest video posted, if you pause it anywhere between 1:09 and 1:11 and look at it frame by frame, you can see that the wingtip of the A1 caught the P-51 just in front of the entire tail assembly (You can see the horizontal stablizer infront of the A1's wing)
(Image removed from quote.)

Also this pic, i believe you can see the dent that was put in the p-51's fuselage from the impact, but it does not look like its a hole, just a dent.
(Image removed from quote.)

After watching this last video, i agree with the people who said the pilot bailed from a flyable plane. As soon as the yaw stopped from the collision, he had it nearly straight and level. It didnt start diving down until he bailed out. Like wise, i cant blame him though.

Here, have a real picture.

[flight17]

thanks, hadnt seen one that detailed.

BTW, From the moment of impact to the moment he left the controls was 10 seconds.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

If you weren't flying the plane, haven't inspected the wreckage, and haven't interviewed the pilot, you have no idea if the plane was controllable or not. You also have no idea if the empennage was structurally sound enough to withstand any control input, assuming the controls were actually intact after the collision. It is entirely possible, even likely, that the controls could have been severed in the collision, and that the empennage was no longer structurally sound.


Even FAA and NTSB experts don't make assumptions strictly based on the information you people have available, and they know a lot more about the subject in question +than 99% of the people who frequent this BBS.

If your plane is hit in a collision, then you suddenly feel the controls go limp in one or more direction/function, and you're 500 feet or less off the ground, you bail out immediately, if at all possible, it's called common sense and self preservation.