P51 colides with Skyraider

[expat]

Gents , go to WIX  ,here's a link to this very subject:-  http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41703&start=135
Page ten has a nice picture showing the inside of a P51 control cables and all, also one of the pages will tell you that the pilot said he had no pitch control , i believe the term used was crippled in pitch .   

[Tyrannis]

Cool, you flew in an Apache sim.
In doing so, you learned nothing of the mechanical systems involved inside of a real
chopper. I've visited mystepfather, AT WORK. He did not play video games. He showed me
what this part does, the chain reaction that happens when you lose this cable, et cetra et cetra.

That was the point i was trying to make.
The sim pointed out to me what the Apache was capable of, its systems, etc. but That was just the simulator. i had never flown or experienced a real Apache.

now, replace simulator with "step-father" and the same thing applies to you. you have seen them work, but youve never really YOURSELF done the work. only watched & observed.

its like saying if you watch someone fly an airplane, your suddenly qualified to fly that airplane.

And Which one?
If its the ex-navy vet, thats cool, but im sure there is a big difference between the electrical systems of say, an aircraft carrier. and a ww2 p51 mustang.

and if its the UH-60, thats still a big difference between an airplane and an helicopter. so everything you just said in that quote has just become invalid.

And yes, the UH-60 is a prop driven aircraft. Smooth one there.

i would of figured the differences between a UH-60 and an P51 Mustang would of been obvious, even to someone of such a small intellect as yourself. but if it isent, i'll point it out for you if you like.

but i guess i should of said airPLANE instead of airCRAFT.

Regarding electronics, not applicable in a warbird, perhaps I will admit. However, it is still another IQ point you
obviously lack.

lol. im sorry for not knowing the complex electrical circuits of various navy vessels? im 18. no offence to your stepfather or w.e, but i have much more important things at my age to study  than learning about a field i'll most likely never pursue.

MOH post -- completely irrelevant, why bother bringing it up?
You're simply another one of those idiots shaking your head and spitting at the recipient as far as I care.
You never earned a Medal of Honor, and you've never earned my respect. You are simply a fool.

I brought it up to show how you were being hypocritical.
You praised a user who was telling others to back off from insulting the MOH recipient on youtube because they wouldnt do the same thing if they were in his shoes.
i basically say the same thing here. (dont judge the pilot unless youve been in his situation) and you suddenly decide to pounce on me for it.
and no, im not insulting the MOH recipient at all, what made you think this? now your making more hollow accusations towards me. can you not think up anything better?
You yourself have never earned a Medal of Honor ether, so why you mention this, i have no idea.
your respect is something i nether desire, or need. your no one of importance to this forum board, or my life in general. therefore i could care less if what i say makes you angry, simple answer is: get over it  

Your clueless accusations will lead you nowhere.

Youve made more clueless accusations on this topic than i have joelina.

Also worth noting, I have never once voiced an assumption on this incident involving the P-51 and A-1.
I have merely pointed out, and had you prove, that you are LEAST qualified of ALL here to make any
sort of hypotheses.

1. i never said you did.
2.i never said i was qualified, hence why im not saying "will the pilot could/should of done this/that instead"
3.from the whacked out philosophies you've been throwing at me, i'd say your the least qualified. not me buddy.


Now joey, I'd actually like to NOT derail this topic into a pointless fight with a forum clown such as yourself. so if you really wish to continue this argument, then lets do it in PC. So everyone doesnt have to go through the pain of reading our pointless little pursefight.

or you can just be quiet and get over it. your choice cupcake  

[RTHolmes]

just as well I'm not a mod on this forum, this topic would only have about 10 posts left in it.



way too much

[EskimoJoe]

You are pathetic, even more so for continuing this.

I'm done. Way to destroy yet ANOTHER thread, Tyrannis.

It is time for you, to grow, the F!, up.

[icepac]

I'm sure the pinch in the vicinity of the control cables  locked the stick where it was on pitch axis.

I'll bet the next thing he tried was the trim wheel and, finding it stuck also, exited the plane quickly.

I'm still not sure why he slackened his pressure on the elevator to near nothing before the collision.

[Tyrannis]

You are pathetic, even more so for continuing this.

I'm done. Way to destroy yet ANOTHER thread, Tyrannis.

It is time for you, to grow, the F!, up.

My original comment was on-topic.

Your the one that derailed it by attacking me personally.

maybe its time for YOU to grow up and get rid of your narcissistic attitude. 

[Ex-jazz]

what if both of you just let it be?

[Babalonian]

Wow, this thread is entertaining, I'm surprised how many in this community are sooo vastly unexperienced with real world physics.

So all that aircraft-grade aluminum that existed before being concaved violently went where?....  obviously it couldn't of gotten shoved up into the half of the tail that didn't get obliterated and as a result done god knows what to any vital systems or control lines physicaly occupying that already very limited area of space....   

Even if he had full or partial control still of all control surfaces, if that tail didn't get bent out of shape at least 5-degrees then the entire impact wasn't anywhere close enough to destroy a quarter of a _Skyraider's_ wing (research what those wing's purposes were designed for, the pony was lucky enough to be in one piece).

Have most of you even witnessed or seen a single major car wreck, ever?

[Babalonian]

Here, some quick wiki lookups.  I relatively suck at physic formulas and math, but even I can tell looking at these numbers the pony's pilot (and skyraider's pilot) was pretty lucky at the end of the day:

P-51D Mustang
Data from Erection and Maintenance Manual for P-51D and P-51K.[69] The Great Book of Fighters,[70] and Quest for Performance[71]

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)
Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)
Height: 13 ft 4? in (4.08 m:tail wheel on ground, vertical propeller blade.)
Wing area: 235 ft? (21.83 m?)
Empty weight: 7,635 lb (3,465 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,200 lb (4,175 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 12,100 lb (5,490 kg)
Powerplant: 1 ? Packard V-1650-7 liquid-cooled supercharged V-12, 1,490 hp (1,111 kW) at 3,000 rpm;[72] 1,720 hp (1,282 kW) at WEP
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0163
Drag area: 3.80 ft? (0.35 m?)
Aspect ratio: 5.83

Performance
Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,600 m)
Cruise speed: 362 mph (580 km/h)
Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h)
Range: 1,650 mi (2,755 km) with external tanks
Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,800 m)
Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 39 lb/ft? (192 kg/m?)
Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (300 W/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 14.6
Recommended Mach limit 0.8

Armament
6? 0.50 caliber (12.7mm) M2 Browning machine guns with 1,880 total rounds (400 rounds for each on the inner pair, and 270 rounds for each of the outer two pair)
2? hardpoints for up to 2,000 lb (907 kg) of bombs
6 or 10? T64 5.0 in (127 mm) H.V.A.R rockets (P-51D-25, P-51K-10 on)[nb 7]

Specifications (A-1H Skyraider)
Data from McDonnell Douglas Aircraft since 1920 [28]

General characteristics
Crew: One
Length: 38 ft 10 in (11.84 m)
Wingspan: 50 ft 0? in (15.25 m)
Height: 15 ft 8? in (4.78 m)
Wing area: 400.3 ft? (37.19 m?)
Empty weight: 11,968 lb (5,429 kg) (  )
Loaded weight: 18,106 lb (8,213 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,340 kg)
Powerplant: 1 ? Wright R-3350-26WA radial engine, 2,700 hp (2,000 kW)

Performance
Maximum speed: 322 mph (280 kn, 518 km/h) at 18,000 ft (5,500 m)
Cruise speed: 198 mph (172 kn, 319 km/h)
Range: 1,316 mi (1,144 nmi, 2,115 km)
Service ceiling: 28,500 ft (8,685 m)
Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 45 lb/ft? (220 kg/m?) (  )
Power/mass: 0.15 hp/lb (250 W/kg)

Armament
Guns: 4 ? 20 mm (0.79 in) M2 cannon
Other: Up to 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) of ordnance on 15 external hardpoints including bombs, torpedoes, mine dispensers, unguided rockets, or gun pods ( )

[Babalonian]

From no visible damage above the main fuselage structural member. All control cables are above this.

You sir, are full of it.



At its lowest point, it is no more than 6-inches off the shelf that sits directly ontop of the rear radiator duct... you know, the infamous radiator scoop that protrudes off the thing's belly.  And you can clearly see all the control cables are no more higher off the bottom of the fuesalage than the ones marked in the photo as the elevator cables....  ALL control cables are clearly within the lower half of the fuesalage....

[cpxxx]

This IS an entertaining thread, but having had a minor moment of late with an airplane. I can confirm training and experience kicks in and indeed overrides adrenalin and fear. So if Mr Davis bailed, it's because he very rapidly realised there was no other option. He didn't panic and bail out of a perfectly good aircraft. There was a bang, he got flung about and then he found no pitch control and he left the aircraft behind. Perhaps if he was a kid flying a government airplane in 1944 the argument might hold but he was intimate with that aircraft.

If you think otherwise then you don't fly enough. Sorry if that sounds patronising but there you are.

This is his stiff upper lip assessment of the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLQsJS7zQOM&feature=player_embedded

[MarineUS]

I'm pretty sure that the investigation will find both pilots at fault, and they might even find the air boss at fault for allowing the pitchout when spacing may have been a concern.  But I would bet that the skyraider pilot will be found at least partially causal for failing to maintain sight of his flight lead and failing to maintain flight path deconfliction, and the flight lead will (again my guess) be found partially causal for failing to monitor his wingman, for failing to communicate an early roll-out (if that is what happened), and for failing to properly brief and execute a breakout maneuver that requires a wingman to temporarily lose sight of the flight lead and then break out without ensuring visual contact with the flight lead is regained.

A crossover breakout like that isn't exactly "standard".  In the USAF, we *never* do that except for demo teams that do nothing but that sort of thing as their primary mission.  Any multi-ship break is done either in order or reverse order, from an echelon formation rather than "finger four" or 3-ship vic.  That way everyone maintains sight the entire time, and nobody has to cross over anyone else.  They just peel off one at a time starting with lead or #4.  We don't do it any other way because it's hazardous to do it any other way.

So there will be plenty of contributing and causal factors, and the investigators will get to choose which ones get highlighted and pinned on which people.

As for the question about why the stang driver bailed out, I doubt anyone will ask any questions other than "how did you determine it was not flyable?", and then simply document the answer while congratulating the pilot on his good judgement for bailing out before it was too late.  The only people who might dig a bit deeper would be the insurance company, because they have a large cash settlement at stake.  Everyone else is probably just going to consider it a good decision made in the middle of a time-critical emergency, and leave it at that.

I've seen the safety and accident board reports from numerous ejection incidents in the USAF and in every case that I can remember, when the ejection was intentional the boards concluded that the pilot(s) made a good judgement at the time, based on their training.  That doesn't mean people outside the investigation didn't try to second-guess the pilot's actions, but the investigation boards almost always conclude that jettisoning the aircraft was a good decision (even if pilot error was the reason why they got into the situation in the first place).

My personal opinion - second-guessing a pilot's decision to eject is something a shoe clerk or bean counter does...  That's about the harshest perjorative I can think of to describe people who do that.  I lost a friend who rode one in instead of pulling the handle, had another friend who almost lost his career when his wing commander didn't believe him after he ejected from an uncontrollable aircraft, and everyone saw the video of that thunderbird pilot who barely ejected in time during a Mountain Home AFB airshow.  In both cases where the pilot ejected, the bottom line is that the pilots went home that evening.  Anyone doubting the validity of the decision should STFU and thank the pilots instead for not forcing them to have to attend a funeral, because in both cases the pilots would have died if they'd delayed ejecting.

[/thread]

[MiloMorai]

You sir, are full of it.

[At its lowest point, it is no more than 6-inches off the shelf that sits directly ontop of the rear radiator duct... you know, the infamous radiator scoop that protrudes off the thing's belly.  And you can clearly see all the control cables are no more higher off the bottom of the fuesalage than the ones marked in the photo as the elevator cables....  ALL control cables are clearly within the lower half of the fuesalage....

Who is full of it?



What your pic shows is the rudder cables. (I was in error as it is the rudder trim cables that rise)

Now go sit on the porcelain throne and have a good dump of fecal matter.

[Gustav]

(First post here, been a lurker on the forums for a good while now before making an account.)

Eying that image, it looks like all the cables do end up at the floor of the fuselage.


Red is me guessing about where the damage would be based on images.

I don't see the point about arguing where the cables are and if they were damaged or not. The pilot said he lost control of the elevators according to earlier posts in the thread.

[icepac]

Most likely the bulkhead got crushed which pinched the cables.