Is the AvA seriously considering enemy icons on permanently?

[ImADot]

how about:

If you have icons turned on, you yourself become visible in icon range aswell, even to those without Icon's on.

If you have Icons off, you remain invisible to people, even icon users.and can not see others icons unless they themselves have Icon mode on.  (to make this a bit fair, could just reduce the icon range detection)


just thoughts 

You mean like this wishlist post?
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=315098.0

[TequilaChaser]

Btw, you can still turn off enemy icons on your own screen.  That's what I plan to do, as I have now gotten so used to no icons that I want to keep it that way for myself.  Also, I myself am in favor of turning icons on, as (personally) I see that as being a main reason for more players not flying in the arena.  I am speaking just for myself here, not as a spokeman for the AvA staff.

The main reason I posted my opinion in the other thread with

friendly 6K - enemy 3K
friendly 4K - enemy 2K
both 3K
keep it like it currently is ( no enemy icons , with maybe short friendly icon )

is because this arena has always been like a roller coaster..... it goes up in players then it goes down ......... there is always a primetime of around 6PM EST to 10 or 11 PM EST that this arena has always been the most populated times, outside of special occassions........ no matter what the AvsA staff does, I feel this arena will always be what it is , a small map arena where a hard core group of players like to fly because of the "Axis vs Allies" plane match ups.... to me that is what seperates this arena from all others  - the 2 sides only "Axis planes vs Allied planes"

icons on / icons off / icons limited ....... war campaigns...... special occassion battles.... all will draw in more players at the initial onslot.......but eventually it drains back down to what this arena has always done........ and tha is the roller coaster....

so to me it does not matter what the settings are..... as long as it is Allied vs Aixs planes that are matched up as best as possible to their Era  early, mid, late, etc.......

90 to 95 % of AH community rather play in the Main Arena to fly what they want..... it has always been a very small minority of the community that rather fly in the AvsA instead of the main early/mid/late war arenas......

just a personal view of the last 10 years.......


<S>

TC

[jimson]

And TC has nailed it.

We still would like to give it it's best chance to be a viable alternative on a nightly basis to those that would like to try something different than the any plane from any country dynamic.

That's why I have been less concerned lately with the icon settings then trying to provide something for many types of players including fighter jocks, bomber jocks and even ground pounders to have something to do in there.

It's taken me a long time to realize what TC summed up in one post.

[Puma44]

Yes, I agree, it's a small arena with historical matchups that is normally populated with smaller numbers of players.  Part of the draw is the "no icon" concept, i.e. a more realistic appearance.  And before someone leans back with a flaming spear, ya the argument goes on about 2D vs 3D, real world flying vs. pixel world flying, and basically the "this is the way we've always done it, so that's how we'll do it" opinion.

It is much harder to spot aircraft at all kinds of distances out there in the real world of aviation.  That visual pick up distance can vary from miles to a few yards and be influenced by a host of different factors.  Case in point.  There is a thread in the MA and O'Club about the collision between a Skyraider and Mustang at the recent Duxford airshow.  The Skyraider appears (on the video) to have flown into the Mustang while in the pitch up for landing.  



How far apart where they when the Skyraider pilot lost sight?  What caused the pilot to lose sight?  And they were friendlies flying together, in formation, supposedly following one another in the pitch up for landing; not two opponents maneuvering against each other trying to evade detection from the other guy.  Not to state the obvious, but, I will.....they didn't have big icons to keep track with each other.

In game, I would venture to guess, that each of us has a different computer/monitor/viewing setup.  To draw a parrallel with the real world of flying, individual pilots have different influences that affect thier visual acuity on any given day.  Two pilots sitting in the same cockpit very often scan and pick up "targets" at different distances.  When the "visual" is made, each can react as necessary.  In game, the pixels determine when a radar contact will become "visible".  Again, different systems, different distances,.....kinda like outside in the real world.  When that first pixel shows itself, there is an opportunity to make some decisions based on the opponents altitude, track across the ground, and the limited environmental factors we enjoy in game.    At this point it's time to decide how to maneuver against the bandit.  From here, regardless of what the opponent does it is a matter of the visual and keeping it.  Lose sight, lose fight.

Some make the argument that having icons on, makes the fight more historical.  Still no viable explaination of how.  Seems to be based more on "this is how we've always done it".   Back in the day they didn't have icons and they still don't.  They adapted to the conditions of when and where they were fighting, just as can be done in game, and duked it out.  

So, if some of us like icons, why not fly in the MA's?  If some of us like no icons, why not maintain the unique AvA environment of no icons?  Also, has turning on icons in the AvA increased the population?

 
  

[Shifty]

So, if some of us like icons, why not fly in the MA's?  If some of us like no icons, why not maintain the unique AvA environment of no icons?  Also, has turning on icons in the AvA increased the population?

 
  

AVA stands for Axis and Allied Arena. It doesn't stand for No Icon Arena and never has. It's purpose has always been to try and promote and support  Axis and Allied aircraft matchups. Yes sometimes we stray away from it  with things like Jet Week. The true purpose of the arena goes all the way back to the day when it was the CT. So telling people that want an Axis and Allied setup with icons to go to the MA isn't really an option for them is it? Plus we should be trying to get people to fly in the AVA not tell them to go fly somewhere else no matter our icon preferences. The issue has been decided and unless something changes the new standard is 3k for both.
<S>

[TequilaChaser]

to repeat as I originally posted........ I only care that the AvsA keps with its tradition of historical planes match up.... and I don't care what the icons are going to be, I can do just as good with them on or with them off, given enough time to knock off the rust I have obtained......

but to state that here and now "Part of the draw is the -no icon- concept, i.e. a more realistic appearance" is kind of misleading the folks reading these threads...... 

this arena has been around for 9 to 10 years now and it has done everything under the sun ( like: fighter town type arena, squads/people trying to be king of the roost, war campaigns, weekly battles with objectives, reduced icon settings, no icon settings, friendly collisions turned on, etc etc )...... it looks like it is perhaps on a downward trend at this time, since this subject about "icons: on or off" has been brought up again and by the AvsA staff this time.......

Puma44, I may be wrong but I am going to assume you started playing Aces High somewhere around 2005 to 2006 ( or maybe 2007 as your bbs username says when you registered here ), but in all that time leading up until this "No Enemy Icons" debate / new settings of AvsA / or whatever we want to call it....... you yourself was not even participating in the AvsA at all, not until the debating & flaming started on the boards here in the AvsA Forum and in the General Discussion forum, which at that time this was another attempt at increasing the numbers in the AvsA........ and for a good while the numbers were up a little....... the flaming/debating died out and everyone calmed down...... but now here we are again, just like many times before in the past regarding  "the AvsA  &  Player Numbers"


There has always been a draw to this arena, regardless if "no enemy icons" or "reduced icons for all" or "regular MA settings of icons"........


whatever the AvsA Staff decide to do, I am almost positive that we all will see an increase in the AvsA arena's activity........ for a while anyways........

So, if some of us like icons, why not fly in the MA's?  If some of us like no icons, why not maintain the unique AvA environment of no icons?  Also, has turning on icons in the AvA increased the population?

The funny thing is alot of us played in the AvsA for 8+ years and we always had icons of some sort for the most part....... so why not have 2 completely different setups......  Server # 1 hosts all offered arenas Early War, Mid War, Late War, AvsA, DA, SEA1 & SEA2  with icons and then on Server # 2 offer all the same arenas but have enemy icons turned off


I would venture to say that when they introduced/decided to make the AvsA "no enemy icons" that the population spiked up for a good bit of time, but it has since dwindled back down to the everyday/motnh/year normal routine of how this Arena has always been...........  but any time in the past that the AvsA Staff has made a change or designed a month long / running campaign.... that the numbers increased significantly starting out..... but just like always they eventually dwindle.....

just my observation........ I did go and looked at your stats Puma all the way back to when you first showed up in the stats........ and checked on to see what arenas you participated in, so I could try and understand where you are coming from or to understand the reasoning of some of the posts you have made.........


As for the WWII plane accident that recently happened, that does not factor in to this discussion of  icons/no icons...... it had nothing to do with losing sight.......but it had everything to do with Situational Awareness or lack of at the time the collision happened.......


<S>   

[TequilaChaser]

oops... Shifty posted before I could finish typing... I am getting 


I think the arena will see an increase in numbers from the new adjustments of the icon settings , back to what they used to be.......

hopefully it will keep the arena populated


<S>  AvsA Staff.......


TC

[Puma44]

Well, TC, glad we are back in conversation mode.  

To be more specific, "Part of the draw is the no icon concept, i.e. more realistic appearance" was intended to state my opinion and observation of a few others who seem to like the no icon concept, not to mislead or dictate to anyone.

Yes, TC, you are wrong.  I did not start playing AH until 2007.  Started in the MAs and endured the hording, vulching, etc. until a year or so ago when I was introduced to the AvA and haven't been into the MAs more than a handful of times that I can remember.  But, I'm sure you'll be able to find that in my stats.  As far as when I started to participate in the AvA forum discussion, it had nothing to do with the timing of the subject matter, it was a matter of subject interest that I thought I might contribute to.  

As far as my stats, I really don't care about mine, yours, or anyone else's.  They don't mean anything to me.  If you need them to satisfy yourself for some reason, then by all means, be my guest.   I'm paying and playing for the fun, the historic aircraft, and occasional hint of realism.  It's hard to understand the need to look up stats to understand where I'm coming from.  

Now, since you've not been able to see where I'm coming from in my previous posts, here it is.  I thouroghly enjoy AH and the near realism it offers.  Based on my experience in the real world of aviation over the past years, this on line game is as close as it gets....and Hi Tech and his gang continue to improve it.  Wow!    So, for my $14.95 a month, I'm going for all the reality of I can get.  That's why I'm a proponent of no icons.  I  am   not   dictating,  suggesting,  etc,  to  anyone  how  to play  the game.  I am offering up ideas and suggestions based on real world experience.

I like the idea of 2 servers, one with icons, one without.  That is some great, out of the box thinking!  

I agree that the Sky Raider/ Pony mid air had to do with Situational Awareness but, that situational awareness was lost when maintaining the visual with lead was lost.  A major violation of the basic contract of formation flying (in the real world). Had visual with lead been maintained, the collision would have most likely not happened, but anything is possible in aviation. In bringing this up I was attempting to draw a parrallel with the differences in our individual computer systems and how some players can see better than others.  I don't agree, as has been suggested, that icons make the game more historic, or maybe someone said realistic.

You have been around 10 years or so.  That is a whole boat load of experience and talent to draw from.  But, your $14.95 a month is the same value as mine and everyone else's, as are our opinions.  So, I suggest we agree to listen to and consider each other's opinions and ideas with an open mind.  Ya never know, there just might be an idea that you long time game vets haven't thought of or considered.  




Note:  Gents, sorry for in advance for mispellings.  I'm a spell checker cripple.    Anyone know where the spell checker went?

[Puma44]

For the AvA staff....

Have the icons been turned on long enough to determine if participation has increased as a result?

Easy now, just a simple question.    No hidden agenda, etc. intended.

Thanks again gents, for your continued fine work.   

[Puma44]

AVA stands for Axis and Allied Arena. It doesn't stand for No Icon Arena and never has. It's purpose has always been to try and promote and support  Axis and Allied aircraft

Never been any confusion about that with me....

[captain1ma]

For the AvA staff....

Have the icons been turned on long enough to determine if participation has increased as a result?

for the time being, they'll be at 3k for both. the contention has been high with the whole icons thing. we wanted your(the community, not certain individuals) input to see how people felt about it, hence the icons thread. some opinions we already knew about. some we didn't. it was a good tool to gauge what people thought. we're never going to please everyone, so we're trying to find a happy medium that works for most everyone.

[Dawger]

My contention isn't whether or not the AVA should be no icon or not.

It is a simple matter of supporting a game that has a no icon option or not supporting one that doesn't.

When H2H finally comes back I'll start donating my $15 per month again because there will be a no icon option.

[Puma44]

for the time being, they'll be at 3k for both. the contention has been high with the whole icons thing. we wanted your(the community, not certain individuals) input to see how people felt about it, hence the icons thread. some opinions we already knew about. some we didn't. it was a good tool to gauge what people thought. we're never going to please everyone, so we're trying to find a happy medium that works for most everyone.

So, has there been an increase in participation since icons were turned on?  

[jimson]

So, has there been an increase in participation since icons were turned on?  

Compared to when?

This week has seemed to have a little better numbers than what has been so far this summer, but whose to say why? Some people were playing for the objective settings as well.

Having only one 24 hr AvA type arena, we have to try to appeal to a majority. Having 2 might help, one with icons, one without, but it would be hard to convince anyone we need a 2nd when we can't fill even one.

The coming H2H may change everything.

[Krusty]

No hidden agenda, etc. intended.

No, not hidden at all. It's quite an obvious and open agenda. Even if taken out of context the reply will be "See, it's not helping, we need to turn them off again right this second!"