Author Topic: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)  (Read 8978 times)

Offline bcadoo

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« on: July 15, 2011, 09:37:04 AM »
I was looking through the planes of the Paris Airshow and somehow found this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loL1LsqcKeU&feature=related

A little more snooping and I found a website with many pics of this aircraft.  Appears to be a homebuilt...prop driven!!

The website with more photos is here: http://lfai.blogspot.com/2009/02/f-psck-chudzik-cc-02.html


The fight is the fun........Don't run from the fun!
"Nothin' cuts the taste of clam juice like a big hunk o' chocolate" - Rosie O'Donnell

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5420
      • http://home.CFL.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 11:03:40 AM »
That page doesn't say anything except the name of the plane it's the name of the creator.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 01:26:20 PM »
I wonder if it could take a mini jet engine instead of the prop
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 01:41:31 PM »
Kind of in the style of a mini Eurofighter Typhoon.  Neat  :)


I wonder if it could take a mini jet engine instead of the prop

Anythings possible with enough money and time.  Have you seen the new Sonex preproduction plane.



That little jet would fit easily.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 02:00:03 PM by saggs »

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 02:34:55 PM »
nice  :old:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline Babalonian

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5817
      • Pigs on the Wing
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 04:24:59 PM »
Amazing, that's its entire powerplant, in that one above-tail-mounted nacelle?  I wonder what its power to weight ratio is....   
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline AAJagerX

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2339
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 06:10:16 PM »
Amazing, that's its entire powerplant, in that one above-tail-mounted nacelle?  I wonder what its power to weight ratio is....  

I saw that one at Oshkosh.  It's faster than the prop driven version obviously.  The max gross weight is 750 lbs, and that little jet put out around 200 lbs of thrust (manufacturer's specs).  Would probably be a fun little ride.

EDIT: for specs
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:22:07 PM by AAJagerX »
AAJagerX - XO - AArchAAngelz

trainers.hitechcreations.com

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 07:32:35 PM »
Amazing, that's its entire powerplant, in that one above-tail-mounted nacelle?  I wonder what its power to weight ratio is....   


Turbines are so much superior to recips in almost every way, that I've wondered for a couple of years why a company like Cessna or Piper hasn't adopted a small turboprop in place of Lycomings and Continentals.  I read about Mooney signing an agreement with Rolls Royce a few years ago to develop a pressurized 4 seat, single engine plane with an RR500 (Allison 250), but I don't know whatever became of it.  I don't think Mooney has the money to make it happen.    I wish a company with more R&D money like Cessna would go for it.

Sure the initial engine cost would be slightly more, but you could have twice the TBO interval with a turbine, less weight, better reliability, cheaper fuel (with no lead in it to anger the EPA) and about the same MPG (yes they burn more GPH, but you'll be going faster).  Plus they could run the same turbine in several different models.  They can rate an Allison 250 to put out anywhere from 200 to 500 hp just by changing the fuel metering with all the same internals.  Put the 200hp version in the 172, the 300hp in a 182, and the 400hp version in a Corvallis or 206,  etc....  Makes sense to me.

Sorry for the thread hijack, just some of my random musings.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2011, 07:27:40 AM »
Turbines are REALLY expensive.  Inspection cycles are worse, and teardown/inspection/repair costs are a lot higher.  Plus turbines don't fail very gracefully, so a poorly maintained turbine is more likely to simply eat itself and quit completely than a piston engine which will may keep running at reduced power long enough to land.

I agree about power/weight, fuel choice, and other considerations for turbine vs. piston engines, but cost is not one of the benefits at this point.  They'd have to build thousands more per year for the costs to drop enough to be a reasonable substitute.

That said, it might only take one application for it to work.  A sexy and fast turboprop sold at only a tiny markup over an equivalent piston aircraft might generate enough sales to make a difference...  But I doubt it will happen.  They just cost too much.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Rino

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8495
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2011, 07:19:14 PM »

Turbines are so much superior to recips in almost every way, that I've wondered for a couple of years why a company like Cessna or Piper hasn't adopted a small turboprop in place of Lycomings and Continentals.  I read about Mooney signing an agreement with Rolls Royce a few years ago to develop a pressurized 4 seat, single engine plane with an RR500 (Allison 250), but I don't know whatever became of it.  I don't think Mooney has the money to make it happen.    I wish a company with more R&D money like Cessna would go for it.

Sure the initial engine cost would be slightly more, but you could have twice the TBO interval with a turbine, less weight, better reliability, cheaper fuel (with no lead in it to anger the EPA) and about the same MPG (yes they burn more GPH, but you'll be going faster).  Plus they could run the same turbine in several different models.  They can rate an Allison 250 to put out anywhere from 200 to 500 hp just by changing the fuel metering with all the same internals.  Put the 200hp version in the 172, the 300hp in a 182, and the 400hp version in a Corvallis or 206,  etc....  Makes sense to me.

Sorry for the thread hijack, just some of my random musings.

     Both Cessna and Piper make turboprops, there are also several aftermarket "upgrades" for aircraft like the C-210
and Beech Bonanza.  As Eagl has mentioned, cost is the determining factor.

Piper Meridian aka Turboprop Malibu
http://www.piper.com/pages/Meridian.cfm

Cessna Caravan
http://www.cessna.com/caravan.html
80th FS Headhunters
PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2011, 09:16:45 PM »
    Both Cessna and Piper make turboprops, there are also several aftermarket "upgrades" for aircraft like the C-210
and Beech Bonanza.  As Eagl has mentioned, cost is the determining factor.

Piper Meridian aka Turboprop Malibu
http://www.piper.com/pages/Meridian.cfm

Cessna Caravan
http://www.cessna.com/caravan.html

Yup, I'm aware of that.. they are both $2 million+ planes, both Cessna and Piper also make turbofans too.  That's apples and oranges to what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about smaller hp turboprops for light singles and twins  like a 172, 182, SR-22, Archer, Baron, DA-40, Acclaim, 206 etc...

I've seen Bonanzas and Barons with PT-6s (and that Lancair kit).  With is really stupid I think, they take a PT-6 which can be rated at over 1000hp and derate it to 400hp, when a much smaller lighter turbine like an Allison 250 can make that kind of power.  There are STCs out there for putting a 250 on certain airframes.  Like the Tradewinds Bonanza, they charge like $400k or something for the conversion, but they're in the business of making money off their STC, I'm sure a production plane with a similar turbine from the factory would not add nearly as much to the price.

The cost for small hybrid turbines is coming down a lot, and as we get better at metallurgy and manufacturing they will come down more.  Rolls Royce hinted that they can sell the new RR500 (updated Alison 250) for less then $100k (to Mooney at least), with comparable hp to any TCM or Lycoming TSIO 5xx.  I had to look up a new TCM TSIO 540 the other day, $65K rebuilt, $80K new.  

So think about it, when some one is going to drop $600K to $800K on something like a new Cirrus SR-22, or Cessna Corvalis, or Mooney Acclaim, do you think they are going to balk at another $40-50K (or even $50-100K after the airframe mfctr mark up) on the price, when for that they get all the benefits of a turbine (faster, lighter, more reliable, cheaper fuel, more available fuel, no lead fouling, longer TBO, smoother operation, etc.)  Plus manufacturers could use the same turbine for many different airframes, meaning more bulk production and cheaper engines.  For example I know an Allison 250 can be rated anywhere between 200 and 500 shaft horsepower, just by changing the fuel metering (all the engine internals, except for maybe fuel nozzles are the same).  So if we take Cessna, they could have a 200hp version for the 172, a 250hp version for the 182, and a 350hp version for the Corvalis and 206 etc..  Without having to buy 3 different engines.  And because turbines are most efficient at 100% you'll be faster for the same hp as well, which negates the greater GPH fuel burn of turbines.  This would make turbines more popular and more affordable, and then I could see a whole bunch of STCs popping up for turbine retrofits on older planes.

The reliability of turbines blows recips away.  In the oil and gas industry they use natural gas powered turbines to pump oil and gas.  They run them at 100% power 24/7 for months on end, they add oil while it's running and only shut them down for scheduled maintenance and inspections.  Same story with those who use turbines for electricity production.  With small turbines for small planes the most common damage would be bearing or turbine blade/nozzle damage from overtemp and hot starts.  Just keep the oil temp/pressure and EGT and TIT in the green and they will run forever, and with a modern ECU to control start/stop and fuel metering like on APU's it would be near impossible to have a hot start, overtemp or overspeed it.  Also there is the possibility of FOD damage or blade rubs, but the compressor inlet is so small on these that FOD damage is unlikely and you'd probably hear a blade rub before it became catastrophic.

Another turbine advantage would be pressurized light twins, like a Beech Baron, or Cessna 340.  The way they do it now is stupid IMO.  They put a turbo on so they can fly higher, then they rob engine of half the air coming from the turbo to pressurize the cabin.  With even a small turbine there is plenty of bleed air not doing anything else to pressurize the cabin, without the turbine even breaking a sweat running at 100%.

I love classic planes, warbirds, radial engines and such (in fact I'm excited because I get to work on some next week).  I just think it's crazy that brand new GA  planes rolling off the assembly line today are using the same powerplant technology as they where 60 years ago.  Look at all the advances in avioncs and navigation, with stuff like glass panels, synthetic vision, moving maps, GPS, TCAS, XM weather.  And yet driving the plane is the same inefficient pistons, con rods, push rods, lifters, rockers, springs, valves, camshafts, magnetos, carburetors, fuel injectors, turbochargers etc, that we've been using since the 1940's.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 09:40:52 PM by saggs »

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 09:36:20 PM »
I feel I should add that all my rantings are from the point of view of a mechanic, and not a pilots.

From the mechanical POV it just boggles my mind how complicated the operation of a recip is compared to a turbine, not to mention the fact they are sooooo much more reliable.  And then my mind wanders and I wonder why everyone isn't flying around behind a turbine.  I was looking in the engine compartment of a 1980 pressurized Baron the other day, and they have so much crap jammed in there it's crazy, I had to pull a bunch of hoses off just to get to where I could get a mirror in to read the part #s on the fuel pump and wastegate.

I can see how people might see things differently from a pilots point of view.

Offline Tupac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5056
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2011, 09:44:32 PM »
The engine in my plane isnt antiquated technology......Its stately  :)
"It was once believed that an infinite number of monkeys, typing on an infinite number of keyboards, would eventually reproduce the works of Shakespeare. However, with the advent of Internet messageboards we now know this is not the case."

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2011, 10:08:52 PM »
The engine in my plane isnt antiquated technology......Its stately  :)

I'm jealous  :aok

Offline bortas1

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1228
Re: Interesting Homebuilt Aircraft (can anybody read french?)
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2011, 11:53:10 AM »
 :salute hey bcadoo you going for rl politing?