Did you ever wonder what would have happened....

[Vinkman]

If the French and English didn't declare War on Germany?

I propose that the Germans would have invaded Russia as they had always planned to do, and that over a slightly different time line, the exact same outcome would have unfolded, that being, the Russians over running the Germans and the colapse of the third Reich.

Couldn't the loss of American, English, and French lives have been spared and the same outcome achieved?

Thought it would fun to discuss and take a break from whining about the game. 

Thoughts?

[Tank-Ace]

No. Russia wouldn't have had the T-34's in '39. Granted the germans woulda had weaker tanks as well, but they woulda been fresh off their non-agression treaty. Hitler would have just had to wait untill the Russians got mired down in Finland and they probably could have reached Moscow.

Also, I think you're underestimating the effect of allied strategic bombing. Also remember that had England not declared war on Germany, she might have been willing to do trade. Churchill didn't much fancy the communists and thats a fact.

IMO, worst case scenario is that Germany looses poland and East Prussia, with the Russians deciding that the well defended german lines aren't worth charging.

Who knows, without the factories under constant air attack, germany MIGHT have finished the Maus. I don't know how likely it is, but its sure as hell possible.

[Vinkman]

No. Russia wouldn't have had the T-34's in '39. Granted the germans woulda had weaker tanks as well, but they woulda been fresh off their non-agression treaty. Hitler would have just had to wait untill the Russians got mired down in Finland and they probably could have reached Moscow.

Also, I think you're underestimating the effect of allied strategic bombing. Also remember that had England not declared war on Germany, she might have been willing to do trade. Churchill didn't much fancy the communists and thats a fact.

IMO, worst case scenario is that Germany looses poland and East Prussia, with the Russians deciding that the well defended german lines aren't worth charging.

Who knows, without the factories under constant air attack, germany MIGHT have finished the Maus. I don't know how likely it is, but its sure as hell possible.

Good thoughts. I hadn't thought of the war in the west as giving the Russian one more year to get ready, but that may have been the result. I assumed the non-agression pact was to let the Reich and the Russians carve up Poland, while pretending they weren't going to attack each other. I always thought its purpose was to buy both of them time. But imagine if the Reich didn't have the quick decisive victories in the west. Would have been so confident they were ready for the Russians? In a way the West may have sped up Hitler's time table with thier poor showing against him.

Hmmmm

[ozrocker]

Hitler's biggest blunder was Barbarossa. The Russian's main concern at the time was Japan.
Had he stopped his aggression in the West; not invaded Russia, the Reich might have
been able to negotiate a favorable settlement.



                                                                                                        Oz

[Vinkman]

Hitler's biggest blunder was Barbarossa. The Russian's main concern at the time was Japan.
Had he stopped his aggression in the West; not invaded Russia, the Reich might have
been able to negotiate a favorable settlement.

Yes Oz, Barbarossa was the whole enchelada for the Reich. To my point, there would have been no reason negociate a settlement with the west, if the west had  never declared war. It seemed obvious that Hitler and Stalin were on a colission course to destroy each other. If that was obvious, they could have sat it out, and ended up in the same place.

[Tank-Ace]

Say about 2/3rds of the German wermach was on the east front. Hitler still put up one HELL of a fight considering the numbers he was facing. I think that if he had all the divisons put on occupation duty and in N Afrika, along with whatever he Italians would contribute, to throw into Operation Barbarossa, he could well have reached Moscow. And even if he didn't, the Germans controled NINETY PERCENT of Stalingrad at one point. If he'd had an extra 10 divisions to throw in (just guessing here on the numbers), I don't think he would have fallen short. Or if he did, he might have had enough manpower to break through to the encircled 6th Army.

[JUGgler]

If the French and English didn't declare War on Germany?

Actually the question should read, "Do you wonder what would have happened IF Britain and France had truely HONORED and UPHELD their agreement with Poland"?

The way I see how WW2 played out is France and Britain were so afraid of war they let down their ally "Poland" by sitting on there hands during the "phony war" I believe had France and Britain made a "REAL" OFFENSIVE effort after Germany invaded Poland the whole matter of WW2 would have been settled in 1939-1940. Germany could not have managed a 2 front conflict at that time in the least!


IMHO



JUGgler

[Wildcat1]

Had it not been for the Anglo-American strategic bombing campaign, or the lend-lease program, barbarossa would have been very different.

[cpxxx]

No France was always on Hitler's hit list. He was anxious to redeem the humiliation of the Great War. Even if Britain and France cynically left Poland to it's fate. France was in the firing line. Hitler took great pleasure in humiliating France. Remember Verdun, the French bled the Germans dry by sacrificing their men. The poor bloody Poilu died in their tens of thousands for France but in doing so they killed a lot of Germans. Hitler took excessive pleasure in forcing France to submit to Germany in the same railway carriage that France made the Germans sign the armstice in 1918.

The British on the other hand were not such a target. Hitler never really wanted a war with the British. But Churchill was belligerent. In truth the British could have bowed out and avoided fighting the Germans. But they would have agonised over it ever since. Hitler underestimated the Brits as he later underestimated the Americans and worse still he underestimated the Russians.

That was his problem from the start. He had no respect for his enemies. As any soldier will tell you, underestimating your enemy is a big mistake.

[JUGgler]

If the French and English didn't declare War on Germany?

This was an empty threat. These two allowed Poland to fall and also allowed war to happen to them. They should have made war happen to Germany far earlier!



JUGgler

[Shuffler]

If the French and English didn't declare War on Germany?

I propose that the Germans would have invaded Russia as they had always planned to do, and that over a slightly different time line, the exact same outcome would have unfolded, that being, the Russians over running the Germans and the colapse of the third Reich.

Couldn't the loss of American, English, and French lives have been spared and the same outcome achieved?

Thought it would fun to discuss and take a break from whining about the game. 

Thoughts?

With the lack of fights, I sincerely believe the Germans would have logged after a short while.

Not to mention that back then I think it was something like 30 days before you could switch sides.