Armor thickness of a m4(76)'s turret?

[Tyrannis]

What is the armor thickness of the m4(76's) turret?

Yesterday, i was in a tiger trying to defend one of the bish vbases in an tiger, when i came across an m4 to my 12. i got 3 shots off at him, all 3 hitting the right side of his turret. but my shots seemed to have no effect.

After 2 shots to the front of my tiger, the m4 had nocked out my gun. I attempted to back up behind cover to make a break back to base, when his third shot somehow nocked out my engine, even tho it hit me in the front.


And now thanks to this crap experience, i doubt i will have enough perks to try the king tiger out in the MA for awhile.
So i guess the armor thickness on an m4's turret is strong enough to survive 3 hits from an 88m AP round? 

[Lusche]

What is the armor thickness of the m4(76's) turret?

hangar, clipboard, rightclick on tank, "vehicle armor"

[bangsbox]

I hit an m4 76 3x in turret from less then 500yrd with a panther 2 bounce offs and a sprite then he shot me dead lame.

[Butcher]

I hit an m4 76 3x in turret from less then 500yrd with a panther 2 bounce offs and a sprite then he shot me dead lame.

Some reason I'm interested to know why it seems M4's can kill Panthers all to easy beyond range of 1400. Lost three Panthers today at 1400 yards or more and still can't explain even from the films, all three were upper hull shots on flat ground.

[Karnak]

Perhaps a bug in the coad for the American 76mm gun?

[Lusche]

Some reason I'm interested to know why it seems M4's can kill Panthers all to easy beyond range of 1400. Lost three Panthers today at 1400 yards or more and still can't explain even from the films, all three were upper hull shots on flat ground.

Any chance you could post one or two of those incidents?

[Butcher]

Any chance you could post one or two of those incidents?

I figured it out, Lower hull Shots beyond 1600 yards will result in a kill for an M4. So Panthers are useless from the front unless front lower hull is hidden.

Beyond 2k yards a sherman can't kill a Panther via front lower hull. What I found out is the upper hull and Turret are immune to an M4, however the Lower hull seems to take shots up to 2k without any problems killing a Panther.

Something seems weird about a round flying beyond 1700 yards, to penetrate a panthers Front Lower Hull especially on the angle it has?

Edited:

I ran the test with Hooter in the DA, an M476 at 1400 yards (upper hull, turret, then lower front hull)

Each time up to 2k the Panther died via Lower front hull, now turning 10 degrees to either side from a head on position, the panther did take a few rounds extra, but still died at 1700 yards.

[Lusche]

Something seems weird about a round flying beyond 1700 yards, to penetrate a panthers Front Lower Hull especially on the angle it has?

While there is some significant drop at 1700 yards, the AoI (angle of incidence) of a high velocity 76mm AP round is still very small, for practical purposes you can still call it "flat".

In AH, the 76mm of the Sherman is stated as having a penetration of 111 mm at 1K and still 97mm at 2k. The Panther's lower hull armor thickness is only 50mm, so effective thickness after taking into account the slope is 87mm.

[Butcher]

While there is some significant drop at 1700 yards, the AoI (angle of incidence) of a high velocity 76mm AP round is still very small, for practical purposes you can still call it "flat".

In AH, the 76mm of the Sherman is stated as having a penetration of 111 mm at 1K and still 97mm at 2k. The Panther's lower hull armor thickness is only 50mm, so effective thickness after taking into account the slope is 87mm.

I'm having a hard time finding evidence that M4's with 76 killed any panthers from the front during the war, do you have any info ?

[Tyrannis]

I'd still like an explination on how an m4's turret could survive 3  88 mm rounds hits, Be able to nock a tigers turret out in only 2 hits to the front, and somehow disable my engine from the front as well.
 

[RTHolmes]

we now have data ...

In AH, the 76mm of the Sherman is stated as having a penetration of 111 mm at 1K and still 97mm at 2k. The Panther's lower hull armor thickness is only 50mm, so effective thickness after taking into account the slope is 87mm.

and testing ...

... Each time up to 2k the Panther died via Lower front hull, now turning 10 degrees to either side from a head on position, the panther did take a few rounds extra, but still died at 1700 yards.

it seems its modelled right

[Lusche]

we now have data ...


and testing ...

it seems its modelled right

Not entirely sure about it yet.

From the excellent "Germany's Panther Tank. The quest for combat supremecy" by Thomas L. Jentz (Schiffer 1995):

[bangsbox]

i dont know what to make an assessment on; but whats your opinion snailman

[Lusche]

i dont know what to make an assessment on; but whats your opinion snailman

I don't want to jump to early conclusions, I'm just starting to form one.

But the discrepancy is astonishing. In game, the lower hull can easily be penetrated my the M1A1 76mm gun at ranges up to 2k. The numbers from the tests of the Waffenpruefamt in 1944, as cited by Jentz, say no pentration possible at any range (at 30 degrees).
While it is always a bit problematic to compare different tests, the is simply too fundamentally to be ignored.

In 1944 the Germans even reduced the lower hull armor thickness from 60mm to 50mm with the introduction of the G variant in order to increase armor at some other locations like rooftop or some parts of the side armor.  Certainly they would not had done that to a very critical location if that would have been seen as taking a high risk.



 

[RTHolmes]

the book penetrations are at 30^o so it still looks reasonable, the thickness at 30^o is 100.46mm if ive got my trig right. the effective thickness will be even higher though.



impressive performance from the 6pdr though (only a 57mm gun!)