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Author Topic: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's  (Read 6499 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2011, 11:41:53 AM »
Quote from: Krusty on July 19, 2011, 03:25:16 PM
The BOB was lost. Germany was now on uncertain footing. Now their staging areas and bases were being overflown and bombed by enemy formations with the intent of drawing them out into fights.

Really?  I thought the allies bombed Germany to hinder their ability to wage war, not to "draw them out into fights".  From a strategic and tactical perspective bombing an enemy base is about destoying planes on the ground so you don't have to fight them.  Funny how all those who were there and all those historians and military leaders got it wrong.

BTW, here's a couple of my favorite yellow nosed 109 pics.  One's a painting, the other a modern photo and the third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:





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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2011, 11:56:43 AM »
Quote from: BaldEagl on July 23, 2011, 11:41:53 AM
Really?  I thought the allies bombed Germany to hinder their ability to wage war, not to "draw them out into fights".  From a strategic and tactical perspective bombing an enemy base is about destoying planes on the ground so you don't have to fight them.  Funny how all those who were there and all those historians and military leaders got it wrong.

BTW, here's a couple of my favorite yellow nosed 109 pics.  One's a painting, the other a modern photo and the third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)
Im not an expert on the subject, but i do remember that in WWI in HD:The Airwar. They mentioned that When Doolitle became in charge of the 8th, He conducted a few Bomber raids where the main purpose of the bombers was not to cause catastrophic damage, But to draw the luftwaffe forces into the sky. And the Fighter's job was not to protect the bombers, but go after said fighters relentlessly until there shot out of the sky.

Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.


I believe it was part of the preperation for Normandy. To cripple the Luftwaffe's fighter force

You can watch the Air War on Netflix if you wish to check into what ive said. :salute Was a very good show  :aok
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Offline Shane

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2011, 12:09:20 PM »
Quote from: BaldEagl on July 23, 2011, 11:41:53 AM
third has nothing to do with yellow noses but has always been one of my favorite 109 paintings:


looks more like a picture - and those are modified 109's with umm spitfire engines...   :noid
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Offline MK-84

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2011, 12:30:59 PM »
Quote from: Tyrannis on July 23, 2011, 11:56:43 AM
Im not an expert on the subject, but i do remember that in WWI in HD:The Airwar. They mentioned that When Doolitle became in charge of the 8th, He conducted a few Bomber raids where the main purpose of the bombers was not to cause catastrophic damage, But to draw the luftwaffe forces into the sky. And the Fighter's job was not to protect the bombers, but go after said fighters relentlessly until there shot out of the sky.

Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.


I believe it was part of the preperation for Normandy. To cripple the Luftwaffe's fighter force

You can watch the Air War on Netflix if you wish to check into what ive said. :salute Was a very good show  :aok

Huh? :huh
Where on earth did you hear about that?
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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2011, 01:28:00 PM »
Quote from: MK-84 on July 23, 2011, 12:30:59 PM
Huh? :huh
Where on earth did you hear about that?
Watch WWII in HD: The Air War.

They mention this tactic, thought up by Doolittle.

It was part of the plan to reduce Luftwaffe fighting forces so they wouldnt be a factor in the invasion of Normandy.
Mentioned the name like twice in my previous post... :rolleyes:
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Offline Ten60

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »
Quote from: Tyrannis on July 23, 2011, 01:28:00 PM
Watch WWII in HD: The Air War.
I've seen this too.  Wasn't really a 'good' thing to be the bait lol...
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 03:23:00 PM »
Quote from: Tyrannis on July 23, 2011, 11:56:43 AM
Basically they used the bombers as bait to draw the Luftwaffe out of hiding, once up the fighters abandoned the bombers to pursue the luftwaffe forces into the ground.

Thats absolutely correct, because by 1944, they realized that strategic bombing wasn't having a noticeable impact on war production, so the shift in preparation of D-Day was to defeat the luftwaffe, and in order to do that, they would bait the Luftwaffe up with bombers and use it an an opportunity to engage them with the fighter support they had.
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Offline M0nkey_Man

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 03:30:05 PM »
Wasn't the objective of Big Week to lure the Luftwaffe out so they could be destroyed in the air?
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2011, 10:18:34 PM »
Get your history books out.  Despite the fact there was a war on didn't mean that there wasn't also a war going on within the USAAF between the bomber guys and fighter guys.  The guys leading the 8th initially were bomber guys, who believed that they could go deep without fighter escort and were bent on proving it.  They didn't want fighter escorts which is why the 38s were quickly sent to North Africa despite having the range, and the Jugs arrived in England with no provisions for drop tanks, despite DTs being used on 39s and 40s along with the 38s.  When Doolittle took over in early 44 it had already  been made clear that the bombers wouldn't make it without fighters.   He also turned the fighters loose to kill the LW in the air and on the ground.  In essence the bombers were bait.

Bigweek was very much meant to draw the Luftwaffe up and the fights into May 44 were essential to killing the Luftwaffe and making sure that the only planes seen over the D-Day beaches were Allied, which outside of two 190s on one run, and maybe  flight of Ju88s was what happened.

It was a war of attrition that the Luftwaffe could not win, and the Allies could afford to fight.  If you dig into the details, it's amazing the difference in the numbers of sorties flown by either side by the time of D-Day.  Were talking tens of thousands vs 100s.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2011, 01:52:26 PM »
Baldeagl, your tone and antagonism are unwarranted. In fact the RAF built many missions in 1941/1942 called "circuses" (and other colorful names) where the main intent was to destroy the Luftwaffe fighter force. The Luftwaffe could decide at whim when to take off and meet the RAF in combat, and when not to. That is, if the RAF was simply running a fighter sweep. If the RAF actually attacked with bombers, the Luftwaffe would take off to stop their fields from being bombed.

The RAF would send a token bomber force, maybe 1 or 2 bombers, but then include 3 squadrons of escorts.

The entire effort was simply to get the Luftwaffe into the air to fight. The Luftwaffe was very much on the defensive (in the respect to their localized environment, not to the overall war) and bright yellow noses gave away aircraft hidden under camo nets around airfields.

I'm not talking 1944/1945. I'm referring to immediately post-BOB, when the RAF was rebounding and taking over the skies. The Luftwaffe was forced to change a number of preconceptions they had about how they could and should fly/fight in the war.

They still put up a very hard fight, and JG2 killed many a SpitV pilot, but that's beside the point regarding the colorful markings.

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2011, 05:15:05 PM »
Quote from: Krusty on July 25, 2011, 01:52:26 PM
Baldeagl, your tone and antagonism are unwarranted. In fact the RAF built many missions in 1941/1942 called "circuses" (and other colorful names) where the main intent was to destroy the Luftwaffe fighter force. The Luftwaffe could decide at whim when to take off and meet the RAF in combat, and when not to. That is, if the RAF was simply running a fighter sweep. If the RAF actually attacked with bombers, the Luftwaffe would take off to stop their fields from being bombed.

The RAF would send a token bomber force, maybe 1 or 2 bombers, but then include 3 squadrons of escorts.

The entire effort was simply to get the Luftwaffe into the air to fight. The Luftwaffe was very much on the defensive (in the respect to their localized environment, not to the overall war) and bright yellow noses gave away aircraft hidden under camo nets around airfields.

I'm not talking 1944/1945. I'm referring to immediately post-BOB, when the RAF was rebounding and taking over the skies. The Luftwaffe was forced to change a number of preconceptions they had about how they could and should fly/fight in the war.

They still put up a very hard fight, and JG2 killed many a SpitV pilot, but that's beside the point regarding the colorful markings.


This is correct, from the RAF standpoint.  I can't comment on Luftwaffe paint requirements, but the reason given here is plausible.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2011, 08:22:24 PM »
In the end you could argue that whichever side had the most confidence had the most color.  Think about all that colorful paint and lack of camo on USAAF birds from May 44 on.  The message was loud and clear.  Come on up.  We're here and we're ready for ya.

I'd suggest that the Luftwaffe felt that way up until about 41 on the western front.
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Offline beau32

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Re: Question about the yellow-nosed 109's
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2011, 10:32:23 PM »
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