Accuracy of new P-40 external models

[bustr]

Krusty I think the gunsight LOS in the game is tilted downward a smidgin to make the default FOV work for the games gunnery model.

Offline fly an aricraft north and let it come to full speed where the center of your gunsight stops moving down. Pull up the target at 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000 on full zoom. Note the location of the gunsight center relative to the center red line of the target at each distance.

Bring the target in to 10-20 yards. You will notice the center line of the aricraft is the center of the target if you use F3 at that point. The gunsight center is about 82cm above the center line of the aircraft. Graph the gunsight LOS. If you change the covergence of the primary gun the GLOS will automaticly change its angle. Graph that......

Conv @ xxx
yards -----0-----200--400--600--800--1000
GLOS--+82cm----?----?-----?-----?-----?- <---distance above or below target center line at range. Guestimate in (Mil).

You can use a 512x512 bitmap gunsight. 1mil will equal 2 pixel. Remember a (gunsight.mil) file with 256 in it.

It's a computer simulation with a tiny window to look through into another world.

Oh, and the nose, cooler and tires are obviously off. Maybe the trailing edge shape of the rudder. Not sure on the rear deck line.

[Krusty]

The thing is the view of the .target can be skewed because of AoA and flight attitude.

The FW190 flew with distinct nose-down attitude, for example, allowing clear view over the nose because the line of sight of the guns and the reflector were higher than the angle of the nose.

Our C-47 in-game has a distinct nose-down level flight angle as well. It makes it hard/unsettling to fly blind at low alts because you're looking "down" at the water rather than "ahead" at the horizon.

The target sits on your coordinates' center. It bases on the X, Y, Z of your view, rather than the line of sight itself. If you pitch up or down you can hit different parts of the target easily. Simply moving it in or out doesn't mean the LOS is wrong. Too many variables to come to that conclusion on this test alone.

[Karnak]

The noses of the Spit I, Spit V and Seafire II were never fixed.  <sniff>

[Krusty]

^-- that's why I feared for the P-40 in this case.

Those noses still bug me!

[lyric1]

Nice work on your part.

[bustr]

Krusty,

In the FW190 armeror's manual the line of sight for the Revi is level to the horizon. The wing cannons are adjusted to fire upwards to cross the LOS at about 150m to drop back into it at about 550m. Both the MG and cannon fire upwards converging above the LOS at about +45cm GLOS. The MG drop back to the GLOS at 400m. All of the 109 family the GLOS is angled down from +74.5-82cm depending on the model along the hood to a point 400m out in line with the aircrafts CL. The MG and any gondola are set to arch along with the fixed motorkanon to pattern at 400m. HiTech lets us pivot the motorkanon in his game.

The P47 and P51 the GLOS was level and the 50cals shot up to and above the GLOS at about 300 yards dropping back close to 1000. The steams crossed at about 300-350.

Go offline and test that with the 190 or 51. LOS from the center of the gunsight angles down below the target center. You can graph it with what I outlined. Any primary gun at any convergence will never fire above the GLOS. They will only fire to it at the covergence you set. The gunsight LOS is tied to the primary guns convergence IP. If I remember correctly when I mapped 9 common fighters in the game. The GLOS gets lower on the target as you move the convergence out. But the primary gun(s) never fire above the GLOS. Only hood MG ,,,and I think the hood cannon on the Ki61 does.....

You can go as far as I did and make a 5mil waffle grid inside of a 100mil circle and do the mapping on full zoom. I set cov at 150, 400 and 600 for the 6 aircraft and mapped the GLOS along with impact dispersion clouds at 200, 400 and 600. Don't remember the primary gun IP going above the graticule center. Came to the conclusion HiTech auto tilts the gunsight LOS for us when we change convergence in the hanger.

Krusty instead of dismissing me do the same test offline I did with different fighters. Put a 5mil grid in a circle. I used the 51D, K4, Yak9T, spit16, I16, FW190D-9, 109G-2, Fw190A-8 and Yak9U. Cyan shows up best against the white of the target.

[beau32]

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,317476.0.html


looks like they are re-adjusting the models some, good find by you guys.

[STEELE]

The thing is the view of the .target can be skewed because of AoA and flight attitude.

The FW190 flew with distinct nose-down attitude, for example

In real life, yes.  Fly our 190 A8 near the deck with CT on, and try to get a shot at a con at co alt on the deck in front of you.  The nose is UP for some unfathomable reason! 

[bustr]

If the 190 LOS from the gunsight center were level to infinity you would be complaining about almost flying into the ground. Instead you have to hold the nose sligthly up possibly because the gunsight LOS has been auto tilted for you.

Try the offline experiment I outlined.....

[Raptor05121]

The noses of the Spit I, Spit V and Seafire II were never fixed.  <sniff>

care to elaborate?

[Karnak]

care to elaborate?

The nose shapes of the single stage Merlin Spitfires is off.  They are too....square or something.  It is hard to describe.

[Krusty]

Steele, I think it's not "up" it's just level. I hope if they revisit the 3D shapes (ugh... can't stand the tails/fuselages!) they tilt it down a tad.

Bustr, your test does nothing. All gunsights are lined up on the horizon. The issue is that the airframe doesn't have to be WHEN that is true. What angle relative to the ground is the plane mounted when setting those lines of sight? There are 2 lines and they are not always parallel. The wings will change the angle of your line of sight, and sliding a static target in and out IS going to move it up or down. This does not mean the line of sight is bugged. It doesn't change (you always "look foward" the exact same way).

It means your test is wrong.

[Noir]

All gunsights are lined up on the horizon.

gunsights are lined up with your guns, not the horizon. depending of the speed and the plane the gunsight can be under or over the horizon. The me262 gunsight is under the horizon at max level speed for example.

[Krusty]

I know that, Noir... I was trying to illustrate how the angle of the plane is separate from the angle of the viewpoint. I used the term "line up with horizon" loosely to mean "when the view is level." I guess I wasn't very clear.

[Noir]

I know that, Noir... I was trying to illustrate how the angle of the plane is separate from the angle of the viewpoint. I used the term "line up with horizon" loosely to mean "when the view is level." I guess I wasn't very clear.

The matter is confusing, at least for me. Why conceive a fighter that is shooting under the nose at level? Makes sense for a ground strafer, but a fighter?