The Inequity of it all

[LLogann]

.....when I could have only made one. 

[nrshida]

I have a solution to this furball lake thingy and "us" vs "them".  How about this:...

What 'us' vs. 'them' thingy? Sounds more like some kind of personal vendetta against the DA regulars to me. I don't remember the DA regulars showing up on the forum and campaigning to make changes to the MA. I do see a thread like this about four times a year though: 'the Furball lake is full of scumbags, let's burn them all and clean it out'. 

In my humble opinion there is equal if not more amounts of dweebery in the MA, just a different flavour of dweebery.

Do you know how many new players come through the lake? Or how many MA players drop in regularly? The core DA regulars are a tiny minority and many of them don't have hours and hours to fly around the MA looking for the kind of dogfight you get in the DA in ten minutes. Sure there are "idiots" in there, the DA setup is going to draw those types. They are not representative.



About F3 mode, apart from the enhanced defensive SA (which newer players might need), the only advantage I can see is to enhance under the nose tracking shots. Those complaining about this might be better spending their time on improving ACM and SA to ensure they do not end up in that position in the first place! Instead of campaigning to have it removed.


If that really is the core complaint, then 100Coogn already suggested an excellent compromise which no one seemed to notice:-

Make a compromise. 
Leave F3 enabled in the DA.
Disable weapons when in F3 mode.

Coogan 

 

[Changeup]

What 'us' vs. 'them' thingy? Sounds more like some kind of personal vendetta against the DA regulars to me. I don't remember the DA regulars showing up on the forum and campaigning to make changes to the MA. I do see a thread like this about four times a year though: 'the Furball lake is full of scumbags, let's burn them all and clean it out'. 

In my humble opinion there is equal if not more amounts of dweebery in the MA, just a different flavour of dweebery.

Do you know how many new players come through the lake? Or how many MA players drop in regularly? The core DA regulars are a tiny minority and many of them don't have hours and hours to fly around the MA looking for the kind of dogfight you get in the DA in ten minutes. Sure there are "idiots" in there, the DA setup is going to draw those types. They are not representative.



About F3 mode, apart from the enhanced defensive SA (which newer players might need), the only advantage I can see is to enhance under the nose tracking shots. Those complaining about this might be better spending their time on improving ACM and SA to ensure they do not end up in that position in the first place! Instead of campaigning to have it removed.


If that really is the core complaint, then 100Coogn already suggested an excellent compromise which no one seemed to notice:-

Shida,

Its quite simple actually.  Tyrannis made the statement that someone that flew in the MA wasn't qualified to have an opinion about what goes on in the DA.  I beg to differ, strenuously.  I lived in the place for a year and I wish I hadn't, not because of the people, but because of the horrible habits you learn from the people.  I was warned about it at the time and in fact, AM one of those "new guys" that came through the DA.  I can honestly say you are dead wrong about the flight time....the regulars fly in there, fly for HOURS most nights they are on.  Furthermore, everytime a thread pops up about F3, they come out of the woodwork to defend it...if you don't believe that, go back and look. 

Shida, the under-the-nose tracking shot isn't the only advantage of F3.  I won't argue that with you because I think you know better.

The difference in dweebery in the MA is that you can avoid it to get to a more even fight....the lake offers no relief unless you just leave it, which one can obviously do if they choose to.  Look, I know there isn't going to be a gang of MA folks running into the DA to wreak havoc on their poor, unsuspecting souls and I know there will be no elimination of F3 in there...I was trying to be funny...I do that alot with little success...I was making a point.  I think you got my point.

Changeup

[SEseph]

Let me.......

....make 3 posts.........

.....when I could have only made one. 

 

You forgot the whine you need to make it awesome. 

[icepac]

Pilots are using F3 in the main arena to see GVs they would normally have to roll the airplane 90 degrees to see.

Removing F3 would also severely thin out the lancstuka, b17 stuka, and the b24 stuka.

[nrshida]

Shida,

Its quite simple actually.  Tyrannis made the statement that someone that flew in the MA wasn't qualified to have an opinion about what goes on in the DA.  I beg to differ, strenuously.  I lived in the place for a year and I wish I hadn't, not because of the people, but because of the horrible habits you learn from the people.  I was warned about it at the time and in fact, AM one of those "new guys" that came through the DA.  I can honestly say you are dead wrong about the flight time....the regulars fly in there, fly for HOURS most nights they are on.  Furthermore, everytime a thread pops up about F3, they come out of the woodwork to defend it...if you don't believe that, go back and look. 

Shida, the under-the-nose tracking shot isn't the only advantage of F3.  I won't argue that with you because I think you know better.

The difference in dweebery in the MA is that you can avoid it to get to a more even fight....the lake offers no relief unless you just leave it, which one can obviously do if they choose to.  Look, I know there isn't going to be a gang of MA folks running into the DA to wreak havoc on their poor, unsuspecting souls and I know there will be no elimination of F3 in there...I was trying to be funny...I do that alot with little success...I was making a point.  I think you got my point.

Changeup

Well no actually, I'm not sure I did get your point very clearly. Sure you are qualified to comment, but I'm still not clear about the motivation of players to try and alter an arena where they prefer not to fly. 

Also perhaps your obviously negative experience of the DA does not generalise to everyone?

I honestly don't have a clear understanding about the F3 advantages, except what I can gather from these constant threads. I really don't care either way myself, but someone has to speak up for the DA when these mostly MA player initiated witch hunts kick off.

If HTC made the decision to allow F3, is it not unfair to suddenly turn it off on those who prefer to use it? Especially if this change is demanded by people that don't even fly there. Do you see why I find that a little weird?

It's a steaming load of Hotspur to continually imply that everyone who flies in the DA is somehow a lower lifeform than the MA crowd. Maybe this is just human nature to part off a group and then deride it, I don't know, but there are some very good sticks in there and some very good people.

Of course there are knob-heads there too, there are knob-heads in the MA as well, and it's obviously going to end up as a mosh pit when it's very busy, look at the setup.

Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. 

[The Fugitive]

Well no actually, I'm not sure I did get your point very clearly. Sure you are qualified to comment, but I'm still not clear about the motivation of players to try and alter an arena where they prefer not to fly. 

Also perhaps your obviously negative experience of the DA does not generalise to everyone?

I honestly don't have a clear understanding about the F3 advantages, except what I can gather from these constant threads. I really don't care either way myself, but someone has to speak up for the DA when these mostly MA player initiated witch hunts kick off.

If HTC made the decision to allow F3, is it not unfair to suddenly turn it off on those who prefer to use it? Especially if this change is demanded by people that don't even fly there. Do you see why I find that a little weird?

It's a steaming load of Hotspur to continually imply that everyone who flies in the DA is somehow a lower lifeform than the MA crowd. Maybe this is just human nature to part off a group and then deride it, I don't know, but there are some very good sticks in there and some very good people.

Of course there are knob-heads there too, there are knob-heads in the MA as well, and it's obviously going to end up as a mosh pit when it's very busy, look at the setup.

Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. 

From an old timers point of view....

The DA was for dueling period! You either challenged people that were there, or met people you agreed to fight from other arenas. The purpose was to have an area were you could have your fight with out being interrupted by anyone else. Either for "training" or "bragging rights" it was to be a sterile arena.

Then they added the "Furball Lake" area. This was to be for "quick fights". Going with the old theme of the DA most thought, and still do that it should be a sterile strait up even area like the rest of the DA was. All things being equal it's man against man. F3 takes away from that in that it makes things uneven (it's been proven many times the advantages you can get with it).

I think the Furball lake area would have a much bigger following if the "dweebery" was removed. There was one map nick named "Donut map" that had a lake in the middle and when that map was up there were hundreds of people flying in a continual furball at all hours. So much so that the "win the war" types use to cry about the wasted resources of all those fighters doing nothing to help the war effort   

Will it get changed? I doubt it. HTC will leave it as it is just for the subscribers that prefer to fly in F3 mode, and like to fly perk rides with out earning the perks and so on.

[Changeup]

Well no actually, I'm not sure I did get your point very clearly. Sure you are qualified to comment, but I'm still not clear about the motivation of players to try and alter an arena where they prefer not to fly.  

Also perhaps your obviously negative experience of the DA does not generalise to everyone?

I honestly don't have a clear understanding about the F3 advantages, except what I can gather from these constant threads. I really don't care either way myself, but someone has to speak up for the DA when these mostly MA player initiated witch hunts kick off.

If HTC made the decision to allow F3, is it not unfair to suddenly turn it off on those who prefer to use it? Especially if this change is demanded by people that don't even fly there. Do you see why I find that a little weird?

It's a steaming load of Hotspur to continually imply that everyone who flies in the DA is somehow a lower lifeform than the MA crowd. Maybe this is just human nature to part off a group and then deride it, I don't know, but there are some very good sticks in there and some very good people.

Of course there are knob-heads there too, there are knob-heads in the MA as well, and it's obviously going to end up as a mosh pit when it's very busy, look at the setup.

Please don't tar everyone with the same brush.  

Lower life form?  I never intimated that...some have, but I have not.  I can give you a fairly long list of friends I have in that arena, one I hired for our company.  No sir...direct that crap elsewhere.  My motivation is actually to mitigate yours...I do not believe its a great place for people to start their AH experience at all or as even a pass through.

Just so I'm clear...I'm not witch hunting or even hating on the DA or the people in general.  I am relying on my personal experiences with the instruction I received there and my experiences...look, when you're new to this game, any little bit of info helps and that was where I was flying.  It took a long time to get from F3 (my convergence was set at 600, that should give you some idea of how effective F3 is on under the nose shots because you just walk those 20mm's right into the plane your firing at) in the DA where I was proficient, to the more realistic aerial gunnery of the MA.  Yes, dweebs abound in both arenas...plentifully...but again you ignored the inescapability of the only 3 bases at the lake.  So, I choose not to go the lake very often for two reasons:

1.  F3 provides an unrealistic set of advantages to lesser pileits...aerial gunnery and SA (the two things that make you dead) and very large percentage of them use it.  Just because you don't, doesn't mean they will admit that they do...in fact, most I've flown with dont admit it readily...until one of these threads pops its ugly head.
2.  The compressed area of operating your aircraft provides an advantage in quickly outnumbering and overwhelming your Air to Air opponents that makes "practice" a mute point.  What good is improving your SA when there's 9 guys on you momentarily?  I mean really?  Do you just want to see them before they make swiss cheese out of your plane?  Hey, my SA in there was terrific...I saw all 9 coming at me, and all 9 firing their forward mounted guns...I think I need to practice my SA some more though because if I get a lot better, I can get out of that situation.  That is why I left and generally go back when the numbers are calm, like this morning..I saw you in there as I'm sure you saw me.  Now, if you are using SA obtained by utilizing F3, you will feel BLIND if you move to the MA...I know this because that was me...I don't really want any noobs being taught that way...but, I'm not a policy maker here.

Again, I speak from my experiences which frankly weren't horrible BECAUSE of the people I flew with...they just taught me what they knew and most of it was kinda gamey and didn't serve me well when I left to try the MA.  IMO, that is NOT the place to start your AH experience...and that is supported by at least one TA trainer who told me NOT to go in there to get better....he was right.  He was saying this:  If you practice something wrong over and over and over, you just get better at doing it wrong.  Having F3 is isn't realistic is it?  If you want his name so that you can verify that fact, I will PM it to you...but when someone that takes his personal time to train folks here says that, it has to have some merit.  I support that trainer's judgement completely via my personal  experience.

If it works for you, I think that's great but you don't have to defend it just because you fly there.  Defend it on it merits and if you can think of enough evidence to support it being a good place for newbs to start their AH experience, get better and move into the MA or stay there forever and continue to improve on their skills as they are applicable to how the game tries to mirror RL, so be it. If they can be competitive enough to not get frustrated and angry and quit, I will absolutely agree with you.  I just don't believe it can be done OFTEN ENOUGH based on the model there, all things considered.

Changeup

[Threeup]

From an old timers point of view....

The DA was for dueling period! You either challenged people that were there, or met people you agreed to fight from other arenas. The purpose was to have an area were you could have your fight with out being interrupted by anyone else. Either for "training" or "bragging rights" it was to be a sterile arena.

Then they added the "Furball Lake" area. This was to be for "quick fights". Going with the old theme of the DA most thought, and still do that it should be a sterile strait up even area like the rest of the DA was. All things being equal it's man against man. F3 takes away from that in that it makes things uneven (it's been proven many times the advantages you can get with it).

I think the Furball lake area would have a much bigger following if the "dweebery" was removed. There was one map nick named "Donut map" that had a lake in the middle and when that map was up there were hundreds of people flying in a continual furball at all hours. So much so that the "win the war" types use to cry about the wasted resources of all those fighters doing nothing to help the war effort   

Will it get changed? I doubt it. HTC will leave it as it is just for the subscribers that prefer to fly in F3 mode, and like to fly perk rides with out earning the perks and so on.

Obviously quoted for truth.

Some say nostalgia is a thing of the past.
If those alterations were made, wouldn’t that be something to be enjoyed.
Unfortunately you’re probably correct in that there will always be those who want “instant”. The trick is to get a mid-point between having to wear goggles and do a pre-flight check and adjust fuel mixture and trim in flight and feeding a coin slot with unlimited lives and ammo. Between authenticity and arcade.
There’s always compromise. Let’s all work as a team and do it my way.

[nrshida]

Lower life form?  I never intimated that...some have, but I have not.  I can give you a fairly long list of friends I have in that arena, one I hired for our company.  No sir...direct that crap elsewhere...  

I don't believe I explicitly named you nor do I believe there is any dispute between us that it is indeed the prevailing attitude on the forum to continually cast the DA sub community in that light.

I speak up for them because so many of the regulars do not have forum accounts, and this forum is often mistaken for a representative cross section of the AH community as a whole which it certainly is not.

Surely it's for the players themselves to decide by accident or design where the best learning environment is and what their ambitions and goals are within the game. This is the natural order of things.

One thing you cannot dispute, regardless of all the complaints about the furbal lake, it IS popular, with a mixture of exclusive DA players and MA players too. Some are lazy or just don't take the game very seriously and want to play a bit of AirQuake (or simply to grief). Others do want to learn ACM and improve. The difference is easily spotted.

Those that want help generally get it. Some of us are forever encouraging newer players to work on their technique (especially in place of ganging and HOing). We routinely direct raw scrub noobs to the TA, often to have them come back and say there's no one there. I can't count the number of times I've stopped what I was doing to spend an hour with them teaching some BFM.

Perhaps a campaign to beef up the TA with trainers would be more appropriate. I'm on CET and I never see one there in my daytime for example.

[Changeup]

Surely it's for the players themselves to decide by accident or design where the best learning environment is and what their ambitions and goals are within the game. This is the natural order of things.

And this is where our views diverge IF you are talking about new players as you referenced in your post prior to your last.  New players have no idea what they need, so how can they decide?  It is generally accepted that new people don't read the AH online literature until well into making a decision to stay so i believe we are responsible for giving some voice to folks who don't know enough to make that decision otherwise they are left to their own devices in this game;   we all know where that leads more often than not. 

Neither the military or successful businesses allow people to decide on their own course of training.  I realize this is neither but those models can be used with historical success to point new players in the right direction,  then, and only then, can they make an informed decision.

There is no doubt you provide a wealth of experience to the new people you run into in the DA...I have seen it on 200 and watched their replies to you.  You really are a fantastic role model and on every  single issue, I agree with you except F3...for a newbs future development, it is useless, indeed, it restricts their development should they choose to visit the MA.
 

Changeup

[jododger]

Perhaps a campaign to beef up the TA with trainers would be more appropriate. I'm on CET and I never see one there in my daytime for example.

If nrshida was on I knew it was way late for me to be up.  The lake seems to have more class at that time of night with better fights all around.  The point you made about the trainers is key, maybe if they went to the lake things would improve.                               If you teach it they will learn

[nrshida]

Well ironically I am the least qualified to comment on the specific usage of F3, so I ought to withdraw from the discussion on that point. I trust my comments to be equally considerate to the the DA residents and also consider their wishes has at least been heard in some quarters.

  ChangeUp

  Dodger, long time no see buddy, I hope you are well sir.

[Shuffler]

Pilots are using F3 in the main arena to see GVs they would normally have to roll the airplane 90 degrees to see.

Removing F3 would also severely thin out the lancstuka, b17 stuka, and the b24 stuka.

There is the bombsite you know

[Scca]

Hey, try this.  Put Tyrannis on your mute list in your profile.  Reread the thread, it honestly makes MORE sense....