Brewster vs Buffalo

[jimson]

This topic may have been done to death but I don't frequent this section much.

Is the B239 Brewster essentially the same aircraft as the F2A Buffalo of Midway infamy?

What are the definitive differences?

[Tyrannis]

The B239 had a lower horsepower engine than the F2A, but the B239 seemed to perform better in its cold environmental than the f2a did.

The b239 had a 32:1 kill ratio against soviet planes.

The fins had the requirement that the b239's engine would be 87-octane fuel compatible.


Some (if not all) b239's had  Hamilton Standard propellers.

The b239 was lighter than the f2a due to the removal of naval gear like the tail hook and lift-raft containers, but also lacked self-sealing fuel tanks and armor around the cocpit.

The b239's were equiped with export-approved Wright R-1820-G5 nine-cylinder radial engine of 950 hp. The f2a had a Wright R-1820-22 Cyclone 9 engine.

All my quick research could find. Basically the b239 had ALOT more success with the fins than the f2a had with the marine corps.

[Ack-Ack]

This topic may have been done to death but I don't frequent this section much.

Is the B239 Brewster essentially the same aircraft as the F2A Buffalo of Midway infamy?

What are the definitive differences?

Technically, both are F2As, the difference being the Finnish Brewster was the F2A-1, while the Brewster flown by the Marines during Midway was the F2A-3.  When we gave the Finns their Brewsters, we gave them the export designation of Model 239.

As for performance wise, polar opposites.  Compare the performance of the F2A-1 (and F2A-2) with the F2A-3 and you'll see why the Finnish Brewster is far more maneuverable than the later -3 model.

ack-ack

[Letalis]

The Soviets learned a lot between the Winter War and taking Berlin. "Fighter Over Finland" by Eino Lukannen is a great read on the subject, highly recommended.  The author flew the Brew, I-153, 109G2 and others. Like the F6Fs oft-cited 19:1 k/d, the Brew's success reflects external factors over machine.  The numbers were/are a direct credit to the superiority of Finnish pilots and tactics.

 

[Wmaker]

What are the definitive differences?

The main differences AH-wise are:

Compared to the B239, F2A-3:

- Weighs roughly 1100lbs more (depends on the loadout)
- Has 200hp more
- Carries more ammo
- Can carry 80gallons (!!) more fuel
- Has the same basic wing area, planform and airfoil and therefore can generate significantly less lift per its weight.
- Had symptoms of longidutinal instability when rear fuselage tank was full, something the B239 didn't have.

[icepac]

Having all 3 brewster variants in game might thin out the flight modeling complaints.

[Wmaker]

Having all 3 brewster variants in game might thin out the flight modeling complaints.

This is slightly ironic considering the author.

[Saxman]

Having all 3 brewster variants in game might thin out the flight modeling complaints.

Technically, you'd want for:

F2A-3 - USMC, although only used operationally in one battle before being withdrawn.
B-239 - Finns. You know the rest.
B-339E - Britain and Commonwealth. Plagued by the same basic problems as the F2A-3: Overweight and underpowered.
B-339D - Dutch. Lighter than the 339E and its engine put out 200hp more. Not a bad little ride at all, and done in more by overwhelming numbers than combat capability.

[MK-84]

This is slightly ironic considering the author.

Yes...It IS ironic
 

[jimson]

Thanks for the replies.

I have no expertise to make a claim that it's over modeled, however the success in which it can be used here tends to make it an overpowering addition to an early pac set up like Midway, at least compared to the way it and it's pilots performed there.

So is it safe to say that the Finnish model was more maneuverable than the USMC F2A3 plus the Finnish airforce just used it more effectively against less maneuverable planes than the Japanese fighters, and perhaps this other factor?

"While the remarkable Finnish accomplishments in the Buffalo are undeniable, aviation historian Dan Ford points out that Stalin's purges and recent expansion of the Soviet Air Force resulted in many new inexperienced pilots while simultaneously discouraging combat initiative. The result was pilots who failed to scan the airspace behind them, and also Soviet air formations that held their positions in defensive circles while the diving Finnish pilots picked them off one-by-one. The Soviet fighter aircraft used in the early years on the Finnish front also included some obsolescent models such as the Polikarpov I-15 and I-153. After the end of hostilities, Karhunen, the captain and commander of the 3rd flight of LeLv 24, recalled:
"The Brewster model 239 was good against the older Russian fighters, Polikarpov I-153 Chaika (Gull) and I-16. Hence the period 1941–42 was the best time for us. In 1943 it was already significantly more difficult when the Russians began to use their newer fighters against us... Later, with the Yaks, Hurricanes, Tomahawks, LaGG-3 and MiGs, it became a fight to the death."

[AWwrgwy]

Thanks for the replies.

I have no expertise to make a claim that it's over modeled, however the success in which it can be used here tends to make it an overpowering addition to an early pac set up like Midway, at least compared to the way it and it's pilots performed there.

The Brewster strangely has about the same success rate as the C202 in the LW, same as the 109G-6 in MW, and the 109F-4 in EW.

 

The C202 must be over modeled.



wrongway

[E25280]

Thanks for the replies.

I have no expertise to make a claim that it's over modeled, however the success in which it can be used here tends to make it an overpowering addition to an early pac set up like Midway, at least compared to the way it and it's pilots performed there.

So is it safe to say that the Finnish model was more maneuverable than the USMC F2A3 plus the Finnish airforce just used it more effectively against less maneuverable planes than the Japanese fighters, and perhaps this other factor?

"While the remarkable Finnish accomplishments in the Buffalo are undeniable, aviation historian Dan Ford points out that Stalin's purges and recent expansion of the Soviet Air Force resulted in many new inexperienced pilots while simultaneously discouraging combat initiative. The result was pilots who failed to scan the airspace behind them, and also Soviet air formations that held their positions in defensive circles while the diving Finnish pilots picked them off one-by-one. The Soviet fighter aircraft used in the early years on the Finnish front also included some obsolescent models such as the Polikarpov I-15 and I-153. After the end of hostilities, Karhunen, the captain and commander of the 3rd flight of LeLv 24, recalled:
"The Brewster model 239 was good against the older Russian fighters, Polikarpov I-153 Chaika (Gull) and I-16. Hence the period 1941–42 was the best time for us. In 1943 it was already significantly more difficult when the Russians began to use their newer fighters against us... Later, with the Yaks, Hurricanes, Tomahawks, LaGG-3 and MiGs, it became a fight to the death."

While it is probably safe to say the 239 was more maneuverable than the USMC F2A3, the other thing to remember is the "pilot quality gap" at Midway was the reverse of what the Finns first experienced with the Soviets.  The Japanese naval aviators were the elite flyers of the Pacific, and those piloting the F2A3s were by relatively inexperienced.  So although the machines themselves certainly contributed, the old saying "It's not the plane, it's the pilot" holds some sway when comparing an AH set ups vs. historic results.

[jimson]

What explains the belief that the F4F was superior to the Buffalo in action during Midway?

Were the F4F pilots any more experienced than the F2A pilots?

I'd like to hear some opnions as to how the Brewster performs compared to the F4F in AH.

My limited experience suggests that the Brewster is certainly at least a match to the F4F in game.

[E25280]

Not sure how accurate this is (attention span too short to look much deeper right now), but it speaks directly to your question.

http://www.warbirdforum.com/midway.htm

First, it appears they used different tactics:

the first division of five F2As, led by Major Floyd Parks, was completely destroyed. The second division of 6 F2As had two survivors. The third division, 6 F2As and 1 F4F, lost three of their number. Fourth division, only two F2As, lost one. The fifth division of four F4Fs operated in two separate two-plane formations. They lost only one pilot. After the combat only three F2A-3s and one F4F-3 remained in commission. The Japanese admitted losses of 9 aircraft.

Think of your earlier quote about how the Finns mauled the Soviets who flew in larger formations in defensive circles, and then compare how the larger groups of Marines appear to have done poorly vs, the more "nimble" two-plane formations acting independently.

But also note that at the end of the battle, only one of five F4Fs remained in commission (80% loss).  3 of 20 F2As survived (85% loss).  Given what they were up against, replace every F2A with an F4F, I doubt the outcome would have been much different.

It also doesn't seem the F4F was given any better rating than the F2A by the pilots that flew them.

The pilots knew that F2A was being phased out from active service and used as a trainer, which made their criticism fierce. However, the F4F was also criticised: one of the recommendations was that both F2A and F4F should be withdrawn from combat units and "retained for use at training centers only". Lt. Col. Ira L.. Kimes claimed that F4F "is hardly better in combat than is the F2A-3 type".

[jimson]

So it would appear then to me that claims of the Brewster being over modeled here are a result of comparing apples to oranges.

The B239 being a different model than the F2A3 and it performed better in a cooler climate.

Perhaps in order to accurately model the F2A3 Buffalo, it would need to be significantly heavier and somewhat less maneuverable, perhaps with more power, unless the tropical heat would have made it actually more sluggish than the Finnish Brewster in cooler weather.