M4 75mm gun

[Yarbles]

The basic M4 75mm I know would have been useless against the frontal armour of a Panther or Tiger at even close range but my experience is in game it seems to be virtually useless even at very short distance on side armour, rear armour and even tracks on the Tiger.

Ok most people take the 76mm for tank battles but from the point of histrical accuracy or just not having the 1 or 2 perks to spare to me the 75mm AP round seems a bit under done.

The 75 M4 makes excellent mobile artillery but I think at least at close quarters it should and could defend itself better.

[Lusche]

The basic M4 75mm I know would have been useless against the frontal armour of a Apanther or Tiger at even close range but my experience is in game it seems to be virtually useless even at very short distance on side armour, rear armour and even tracks on the Tiger.

Two HE hits only will destroy the tracks of a Tiger I and II. Two good shots and the 100 perk behemoth is rendered immobile by the cheapest tank with the weakest gun in game.
Point black at 0°, the M4(75) will penetrate both tank's side armor and take them out in 3-4 hits.  But overpenetration is so small (value given in hangar for the 75mm gun: 91mm vs Tiger side armor of 80mm) that there is not much leeway in temrs of distance or offset angle.

[Yarbles]

Two HE hits only will destroy the tracks of a Tiger I and II. Two good shots and the 100 perk behemoth is rendered immobile by the cheapest tank with the weakest gun in game.
Point black at 0°, the M4(75) will penetrate both tank's side armor and take them out in 3-4 hits.  But overpenetration is so small (value given in hangar for the 75mm gun: 91mm vs Tiger side armor of 80mm) that there is not much leeway in temrs of distance or offset angle.

Do you think that correct modelling. My understanding was a sherman 75 which I believe was the vast majority of Shermans could kill a tiger from the side and especially the rear and not in 4 shots but 1. I do realise a point blank shot on the frontal armour was relatively useless though.

What is the relative penetration of the 76 and the Firefly?

[coombz]

Dear Yarbles,

You seem to have PMs blocked (or perhaps just me ) and so I couldn't respond to your latest move in our 'Chess by BBS PM' game

Please unblock me and let me know when it has been done     (if not blocked, maybe you just need to delete some)

In the meantime, Knight to King4

[Lusche]

Do you think that correct modelling. My understanding was a sherman 75 which I believe was the vast majority of Shermans could kill a tiger from the side and especially the rear and not in 4 shots but 1.

Internal damage modeling is a complicated matter
Sometimes it takes just one penetrating shot, sometimes tanks took several penetrating hits and still kept on fighting. It depended on exact hit location, size of HE charge (if any), excess energy after penetrating armor (and this is really complex).

It seems to me that AH is assigning a similar "hit point" value to tank internal locations as it does to airplane components, i.e. it takes X damage to remove wingtip or destroy tank engine. So weaker shells with less damage potential after penetration may take more than one hit for inflicting critical damage to a component.

[Yarbles]

In the meantime, Knight to King4

  I have deleted 10 pages now.

In the meantime I throw the board up in the air and call it a draw  

No one should be barred from PM's I am open to any consenting adult proposition however Bizzare and the usual abbuse  

Please re send so I can double check its sorted  

[Yarbles]

Internal damage modeling is a complicated matter
Sometimes it takes just one penetrating shot, sometimes tanks took several penetrating hits and still kept on fighting. It depended on exact hit location, size of HE charge (if any), excess energy after penetrating armor (and this is really complex).

It seems to me that AH is assigning a similar "hit point" value to tank internal locations as it does to airplane components, i.e. it takes X damage to remove wingtip or destroy tank engine. So weaker shells with less damage potential after penetration may take more than one hit for inflicting critical damage to a component.

I would susspect the gun is then slightly under pwered as it can take 4 hits at a weak point and 2 hits to take out a track.

[Lusche]

I would susspect the gun is then slightly under pwered as it can take 4 hits at a weak point and 2 hits to take out a track.

Weak point? The side armor is 80 mm, that's the thickness Panzer IV has in frontal armor...

[Rob52240]

That 75 mm gun is extremely effective against the following and we should be grateful to have it.

Jeep, LVT, M3, M16, Field Gun, Troops

[shermanjr]

and 2 to 3 shots on rear armour would also take out tiger with m4 with 75 mm gun

[SmokinLoon]

That 75 mm gun is extremely effective against the following and we should be grateful to have it.

Jeep, LVT, M3, M16, Field Gun, Troops

The HE round of the 75mm Sherman serves up 178 lbs of damage to OBJ, second only to the Tiger I/II'a and T34/85's 234 lbs.  However, bring in to consideration the rate of fire and ammo capacity and the gap is not as big as one may think.  Oh, did I mention the 60/4.5in rockets from the Calliope variant?  Point being, the M4/75's best asset is it's ability to engage against non-armored targets.  Yeah, vs the lighter armored gv's it is fun to use, no doubt.   

[MK-84]

Sloehand has bagged a TigerII with an M4/75

[AWwrgwy]

Do you think that correct modelling. My understanding was a sherman 75 which I believe was the vast majority of Shermans could kill a tiger from the side and especially the rear and not in 4 shots but 1. I do realise a point blank shot on the frontal armour was relatively useless though.

What is the relative penetration of the 76 and the Firefly?

Are you taking range into account? What range are we talking about?

In this encounter of an M-4 vs a Tiger: http://www.752ndtank.com/Cecina.html#tactics, note the range:

As the German spotter fell, the Sherman tank crew saw the main gun barrel of Tiger 221 emerge from behind a two-story house on the left side of Via Montanara near the curve in the road. At that moment, Tiger 221 rounded the curve onto Via Montanara and came face to face with the Lieutenant Cox's Sherman, at a distance of 75 to 100 yards.

Both tanks fired simultaneously. The Tiger's 88mm shell struck the ground close to the left side of Cox's Sherman. The concussion of the Tiger's shot lifted the left side of the Sherman off the ground, but no damage was inflicted. At the same instant, the Sherman fired a 75mm armor piercing (AP) round, hitting the lower front hull of the Tiger. Crew members of the Sherman recalled seeing the shell merely bounce off the Tiger's hull. The only damage inflicted upon Tiger 221 by this hit was a chip in the Zimmerit coating, which is clearly visible in after-action photographs.

Crew members of Sherman 11 estimate that they were between 25 and 30 yards from Tiger 221 when they fired. The very close range is corroborated by infantry eyewitness reports, by the commendation for the Silver Star that was later presented to Lieutenant Cox, and by detailed maps and photographic evidence.

So we have a bounce off the front from less than 100 yards and a kill from 30 yards. Ever been 30 yards from an enemy tank in AH2? I know it works with an M-3 GMC. It takes about 8 shots from the rear though.




wrongway

[LThunderpocket]

the m4-75 could kill panthers if they flanked and shot the side armor.

on a episode of "greatest tank battles" a WW2 vet who was in a m4-75 was driving down a road with 4 other friendly tanks when panthers started shooting at them from the side.he and another tanker (Creighton Abrams)flanked the panthers and started shooting at the side armor.the m4-75 could penetrate the side and rear amor of the panther,and they killed 1 or 2 before the panthers retreated.

Creighton Abrams was known for agressive tactics in WW2 and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.the M1 Abrams tank was named after him-just thought I'd add that in there

[Butcher]

the m4-75 could kill panthers if they flanked and shot the side armor.

on a episode of "greatest tank battles" a WW2 vet who was in a m4-75 was driving down a road with 4 other friendly tanks when panthers started shooting at them from the side.he and another tanker (Creighton Abrams)flanked the panthers and started shooting at the side armor.the m4-75 could penetrate the side and rear amor of the panther,and they killed 1 or 2 before the panthers retreated.

Creighton Abrams was known for agressive tactics in WW2 and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross.the M1 Abrams tank was named after him-just thought I'd add that in there

You are assuming the M4-75 gets a clear shot to the side, True its possible under 800 yards to kill a Panther from the side. In Aces High a decent tanker will not put a Panther in a position to get nailed so easily.