At the gun range Saturday

[Dago]

Went with a couple guys to the gun range Saturday, we all took 1911's.  A couple Kimbers and a Colt.  I couldn't help but notice we were the only one's running the targets out a ways.  I did some decent shooting at 25 yards, and at 15 yards, was pleased with it, the Kimbers are nice and accurate weapons.

But, almost everyone else but us at the range was shooting targets way up close.  Some even at 7 yards.  Really?

Why does anyone shoot at 7 yards anyway?  I can hit the target by throwing empty brass that far.  Seriously, shoot at least 15 yards.  I think people shoot 7 yards to try to fool themselves into thinking they are good shots.  If you can't hit anything farther than that, than throw rocks.  Don't even try and give me any 'bad guy will be within 7 yards" crap either, if you can hit at 15 yards, you are still covered closer.  Learn to shoot at a moderate distance at least so you can at least somewhat, in some small way learn real shooting practices and techniques.  Amazing how many people I meet who think they are good shots, but can't hit anything farther than they can toss a bowling ball.

Self-gratification seems to override the desire to learn and do well these days.

[PFactorDave]

Most confrontations that require self defense occur at very close ranges.  People like to practice at these closer ranges.  I actually have some drills that I run through that start at 7 yards then come in to 5 yards and then 3 yards.  At these ranges, you are shooting more on instinct then using the sights.  It isn't really target shooting like it sounds like you are doing.  At least that is how it is for me...

I do like to run the target back to the wall to test myself too though.

[Shuffler]

Most confrontations that require self defense occur at very close ranges.  People like to practice at these closer ranges.  I actually have some drills that I run through that start at 7 yards then come in to 5 yards and then 3 yards.

I do like to run the target back to the wall to test myself too though.

This

I'm amazed how many people think they are good to go for some terd attacking them because they can hit a stationary target at 15 yards that is not shooting back.

[Golfer]

Go take an honest to goodness defensive pistol class or tactical pistol class and see how applicable being slow fire shooting for groups at 25 yards is. I'd say they know something you don't know.

The correlation to 7 yards is it's 21 feet.  Once upon a time the FBI decided that an attacked intent on doing harm to an agent could do so if they were within 21 feet.  That meant an agent would require 21 or more feet of distance between themselves and the attacker in order to draw, unsafe and fire their weapon before the bad guy could travel that distance and stick a knife in them.

Concealed carry and pistol shooting applications occur at very close ranges.  Anywhere from powder burn close to a maximum of 15-20 feet typically.  They're up close and in your face as opposed to a William Tell apple off the top of a head shot.

Precision shooting at distance is great for hunters and organized match shooting that specialize in it.  I'll shoot a .44 Magnum at a deer out to 50 yards and more in some cases.  If I'm shooting at a person outside of 15 yards I'd use a carbine.

[PFactorDave]

If I'm shooting at a person outside of 15 yards I'd use a carbine.

I'm sure you can find lawyers who will tell you that, as a private citizen, using deadly force beyond that 7 yard range opens you up to "was it justified" questions in some situations.

I believe in practicing for the situation you expect, as much as is possible from a practical standpoint.  Muscle memory, site picture.  It's all extremely important when it comes to a life or death adrenaline charged moment in time.

[Jayhawk]

People shoot for different reasons and train in different ways.

Don't hate, be glad there are others out there shooting.  

P.S. Loving the multiple firearms threads going on.

[Golfer]

I'm sure you can find lawyers who will tell you that, as a private citizen, using deadly force beyond that 7 yard range opens you up to "was it justified" questions in some situations.

I believe in practicing for the situation you expect, as much as is possible from a practical standpoint.  Muscle memory, site picture.  It's all extremely important when it comes to a life or death adrenaline charged moment in time.

It has nothing to do with being justified or not since it's hypothetical.  I'm saying if I know an engagement will take place at 25 yards I'm not bringing a pistol.   What I'm saying has no bearing on when, why or how to employ a concealed carry pistol, just a matter of practicality given a set of circumstances.

If you're farther than 25 yards, bring a carbine.  That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.

[M0nkey_Man]

It has nothing to do with being justified or not since it's hypothetical.  I'm saying if I know an engagement will take place at 25 yards I'm not bringing a pistol.   What I'm saying has no bearing on when, why or how to employ a concealed carry pistol, just a matter of practicality given a set of circumstances.

If you're farther than 25 yards, bring a carbine.  That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.

ugggh, hogs,I love how the 1st few shots just make them mad

[PFactorDave]

That goes for hogs as much as it does for Zombies.

Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 guage SxS Coach Gun!   

[Dago]

You guys make me laugh, really.  I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range.  Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?  

I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills.  Practice to be mediocre.  You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload.  I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills.   They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.  

Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on.  Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.

My opinion and I am welcome to it.  

[Dago]

Well, for Zombies, I have a 12 guage SxS Coach Gun!   

(Image removed from quote.)

Nice choice for home defense for sure.   A short barrel 12 gauge is absolutely the smart choice, in double, pump or a good auto.   

[Golfer]

ugggh, hogs,I love how the 1st few shots just make them mad

Upgrading to .30 caliber helped in my case  .  My first time hog hunting a few years ago didn't go well with a .223 and what amounted to varmint ammunition.

[MaSonZ]

If i had a pistol it would be for home defense and going out to the range with my buddies to shoot off some rounds down range for some friendly competition. if i was looking to practice my self defense i would damn right shoot close. the furthest i would ever have to shoot in my home would be no more then 10 yards (not that i would ever have to, crimes are few and far between in my community). and i wouldnt shoot to maim, if your in my house im gonna shoot to defend myself  

[Golfer]

You guys make me laugh, really.  I knew, absolutely knew there would be some "tactical range heros" here to defend shooting at knife range.  Got rail guns with lights and lazers hanging all over them too?  

I know the current mindset is to shoot up close when running tactical drills.  Practice to be mediocre.  You can run the same drills at 15 yards, running mag changes, point and shoot, but actually be able to learn to shoot and hit something would seem to serve more than just speed of draw and reload.  I used to shoot at an outdoor range that at one time allowed the local police to shoot there, doing their drills.   They had to stop that, as the police couldn't keep the rounds on the range, kept shooting off range and hitting structures downrange of the facility.  

Yeah, learn to shoot fast and not hit crap that isn't close enough to spit on.  Not my idea of good gun control and handling, but makes the "tacticool" feel badass I guess.

My opinion and I am welcome to it.  

Well if you're going to go out of your way to make a blanket statement people are stupid for engaging at close range then I'll make a point to say they're not.  Being able to hit a target at distance does not translate into having the skills to perform well up close.  That's your misconception and while it may be logical it is most definitely not true especially in a high stress situation.  What will save your bellybutton is basic motor skills, muscle memory and lots and lots of repetition.  There is no substitute for actually putting rounds through the gun at any distance and when you're talking about very close ranges where you may well not have an opportunity to aim that's fine.

I can say that you can take guys who are great bench shooters and they will not perform as well in the woods against moving game.  This is with delicious animals as targets that aren't firing back.  They're looking for an X ring when a kill shot will do and will delay taking a good shot in the name of a great shot.  When you let 20 hogs run by you without firing a single round because you couldn't get a proper aim on one, something's wrong.

Yes to the weapon lights, no to the lasers on my carbines and rifles which I'm sure you're referring to.  Crimson Trace grips do reside on my carry guns with the exception of a Sig P238.  I do have night vision optics and night vision capable sights for the carbines and rifles.  Weapon lights have their place on weapons when you might engage in an environment which is often referred to as "darkness."  Being able to illuminate what you're going to be shooting at with 100-250 lumens really helps you in that respect not only with the fact you'll see what you're shooting at but you may realize you're not going to need to shoot at all.

But you're right, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it, ace.

[PFactorDave]

I don't have any lights or lasers mounted on any of my weapons.  I do keep a tactical flashlight with my home defense pistol, and I occaisionally practice with it.

I don't carry concealed, at least that's my story.  I live in Illinois, where the politicians insist that I don't deserve the right to defend myself or my family outside of my own home.  We're the last state not to have some form of concealed carry, yet...