Tanking

[SmokinLoon]

Loon, the firefly does a lot more damage for every shot than the M4 does (or so it seems).

With the Firefly, you have better optics (even if the sight is worse, IMO), the ability to one-shot most tanks, and a much improved ability to engage Tiger's and Panthers.

You missed my point.  The only advantage the Firefly has over the M4/76 is the long range penetration ability.  That is it.  The Firefly has a 6X zoom and the M4/76 has a 5X, for all practical purposes there is no advantage for the Firefly.  The Firefly reloads as slow as a 7 year itch.  So again, I offer that the long range ability of the Firefly is not worth the extra perks it cost to bring it out of the hanger. 

The Firefly's slower speed by 6 mph and 2.5 second slower rate of fire compared to the M4/76, which does not surrender any AP ability at typical AH tank battle range, will keep it in the hanger.     

[Butcher]

The biggest problem with the Firefly is 80% of tankers have no idea how to use it correctly, its one of the best ambush/defensive tanks in the game, assuming you are able to get in an ambush setting quick enough without being over-ran.

Most will up a King Tiger and sit on concrete rather then use a Firefly for obvious reasons, A) they don't want to lose perks but want a big gun B) have no idea how to use a firefly effectively and get killed the second they leave concrete

Honestly if you are going to up a perk tank and spend the perks - the Panther runs around 15-20 perks - excellent armor, highly mobile, excellent gun and 29 mph where as a Firefly being 5-7 perks does 20mph, excellent gun - no mobility or armor.

Granted I will say this, if your a newer tanker to the game its best to up a few Fireflies to get a basic understanding of ambushing/defending before you ever step into a panther/tiger. I know a few that have barely any perks in GV's, and constantly waste them on bad situations in perk tanks.

It really comes down to the player himself, most of my squad are either in a Panther or T34/85, 90% of my GV kills are in either as well.
When it comes down to it, I guess its your style of play rather then anything else.

[waystin2]

The biggest problem with the Firefly is 80% of tankers have no idea how to use it correctly, its one of the best ambush/defensive tanks in the game, assuming you are able to get in an ambush setting quick enough without being over-ran.

Butcher has it right.  I love my Firefly and would not drive anything less.  The optics and firepower make it a great shoot and scoot tank to pick at incoming GV's.

[SmokinLoon]

Butcher has it right.  I love my Firefly and would not drive anything less.  The optics and firepower make it a great shoot and scoot tank to pick at incoming GV's.

If you think the Firefly is a good "shoot-n-scoot" tank, then you perhaps may want to verify the meaning of that term.  That term personifies the M18, not the Firefly. 

The Firefly is best used as a long range engagement tank.  The 6X optics, the hard hitting-flat shooting main gun are at best utilized at long range.  The slower 20mph speed and 8 second reload make it sluggish in close range battles.  Inside typical AH tank battle ranges, it is at a disadvantage compared the M4/76 due to the 2.5 second slower reload.   

[Butcher]

If you think the Firefly is a good "shoot-n-scoot" tank, then you perhaps may want to verify the meaning of that term.  That term personifies the M18, not the Firefly. 

The Firefly is best used as a long range engagement tank.  The 6X optics, the hard hitting-flat shooting main gun are at best utilized at long range.  The slower 20mph speed and 8 second reload make it sluggish in close range battles.  Inside typical AH tank battle ranges, it is at a disadvantage compared the M4/76 due to the 2.5 second slower reload.   

Thats very true, Being in a semi-tanking squad - I generally have the luxury of always having a squad mate in a Panther/T34 etc nearby which gives me the advantage of using the Firefly to its best when its actually used, normally we frankly just have so many perks we just stick with the Panther.

[Tank-Ace]

You missed my point.  The only advantage the Firefly has over the M4/76 is the long range penetration ability.  That is it.  The Firefly has a 6X zoom and the M4/76 has a 5X, for all practical purposes there is no advantage for the Firefly.  The Firefly reloads as slow as a 7 year itch.  So again, I offer that the long range ability of the Firefly is not worth the extra perks it cost to bring it out of the hanger. 

The Firefly's slower speed by 6 mph and 2.5 second slower rate of fire compared to the M4/76, which does not surrender any AP ability at typical AH tank battle range, will keep it in the hanger.

And you missed my point. The Firefly takes, instead of speed, ROF, or better damage-sponge properties, a much higher damage caused by each shell (again, it seems so at least). This means that, where an M4A3(76) might take 4 shots to kill 2 tanks at 700yds, the Firefly will usually do it in just 2 shots, therefore the ROF advantage is moot (especially at close range, where the odds of a miss are much lower).

Really, the only actuall LOSS of preformance the Firefly has over the M4 is speed and how much damage it can take. And the later is much more of an issue. Asside from that, they both achieve the same thing through different means; the M4 kills things with faster-firing but weaker shells, while the firefly kills things with slower firing but more powerfull shells. The firefly is actually a bit faster at engagning multiple targets.

By the way, the 17lber is significantly more powerfull than the 76mm M1A1:
17lber: 172mm at 0yds
M1A1: 136mm at 0yds (I think its 136 anway. Its definetly more than 133mm and less than 137mm).

This means that while the M4 is unable to penetrate the Panther's glacis plate at any range, the Firefly is able to do so at out to about 1200yds IIRC.

Point is that the speed, and especially ROF are small factors in its hanger-queen status. Its the perk price, and easy of being destroyed that keep it in the hanger.

[WWhiskey]

The air aspect of AH flaws the balance of the game a good bit,, tho I like all aspects of the game.   If we had an all gv, arena or one where there was no ord near a tank town type map, the M-18 would rule the game    It's speed and gun ability is unmatched !  The firefly is a great tank. And has a nice ability to stand off with the big German tanks, but nothing can compare to 50 plus MPH and the 76 mm gun in the right hands !

[Tank-Ace]

I'd have to argue with that WWhisky. The Königstiger would probably take that place, or at least put up one hell of a fight before taking no less than 2nd place.

1) completly invincible from the front, and from the sides when angled.

2) 1-shot ability for most tanks out beyond 2700yds (I've one-shoted a T-34/85 at an estimated 3450yds).

3) fear factor: The M18 may be dangerous if you let it flank you, or don't spot it in time, but the Tiger II is dangerous, period. Hell, it even LOOKS menacing.

[Butcher]

And you missed my point. The Firefly takes, instead of speed, ROF, or better damage-sponge properties, a much higher damage caused by each shell (again, it seems so at least). This means that, where an M4A3(76) might take 4 shots to kill 2 tanks at 700yds, the Firefly will usually do it in just 2 shots, therefore the ROF advantage is moot (especially at close range, where the odds of a miss are much lower).

This means that while the M4 is unable to penetrate the Panther's glacis plate at any range, the Firefly is able to do so at out to about 1200yds IIRC.

Point is that the speed, and especially ROF are small factors in its hanger-queen status. Its the perk price, and easy of being destroyed that keep it in the hanger.

An M4a3 should not require 2 shots to kill any tank at 700 yards, unless you are hitting tracks which in any case even a 17LB can't do any better.
The only advantage a firefly has over an M4a3 is kill shots at range beyond 1400yards. I have no idea where you come up with the idea battle damage properties actually means anything other then towns, there is a case where tanks taking to many hits will because "weak" however I have seen this once every 6 months - in thousands of engagements.

ROF I don't believe has anything to do with the hanger-queen status, I would say its strictly perk value and armor, I would lean more towards the armor value as in most tanks at any range can successfully engage and destroy a Firefly, where most people are not going to risk losing 7 perks when 15-20 perk Panther is a better value. However I believe the perk value of the Firefly is correct, although the tank is horrible the main gun is what makes it stand out, for 7 perks you are getting a weapon thats able to play with Tigers/Panthers where nothing else we have on the allies side can.

Until some russian tank destroyers come out, the tactics of flanking have to come into play, and any decent perk tank driver is always going to have someone on his flanks which rule out that - which is why ords and ground attack are so viable for gv's to succeed in the game.

Even with Air support, the M18 has proven to be a hassle for Perk tanks, in no way can it match a perk tank, however given the odds - 2 m18s are more then a match for a typical Panther driver in game, this is why air support dominates the Aces High - a couple of 303s (possibly?) or 50 cal (for sure) will knock an m18 out.

Assuming the pilots get to the m18 before it gets to a Perk tank first, I'm fortunate I haven't really had much problems against M18s, however I seldom run into other squads with equal skilled tankers which tends to be a balancing factor (most won't go offensive with perk tanks, instead rely more on faster non-perk tanks)

[Butcher]

I'd have to argue with that WWhisky. The Königstiger would probably take that place, or at least put up one hell of a fight before taking no less than 2nd place.

1) completly invincible from the front, and from the sides when angled.

2) 1-shot ability for most tanks out beyond 2700yds (I've one-shoted a T-34/85 at an estimated 3450yds).

3) fear factor: The M18 may be dangerous if you let it flank you, or don't spot it in time, but the Tiger II is dangerous, period. Hell, it even LOOKS menacing.

Most don't take a King Tiger off concrete let alone use it in an offensive mode, you will rarely see a King Tiger enough for it to be more meancing then an M18.

[WWhiskey]

kind of proud of these numbers for day two of the month!
                    kills                    deaths

M-18            7    2    0    2
M-3              1    3    0    2
M-8              0      2    0    0
M4A3(75)      64    7    0    15
M4A3(76)W    147    37    14    32

[waystin2]

I may have used terminology for my preferred Firefly tactics that don't match others, but my methodology is to move up towards enemy, fire for a kill, move again, fire for a kill,  always advancing towards the enemy but along the right or left flanks.  Butcher touched on something to note about the Firefly and that it's perk comes strictly from it's superior cannon (in comparison to other M-4's).  This gives you a tank that allows you for a modest perk to kill anything it runs into.  Let's face it, most guys do not up a Panther, Tiger or Tiger II to an enemy field.  Those tanks are reserved in my experience for parking on safe pavement or a friendly spwan camp.  So the closest gun (typically) to the Firefly's 17 lb'er that you will encounter when on the defensive is usually the T34-85, which the Firefly can easily dispatch.  Reload time is slower, but it is a one shot one kill machine that more than makes up for it's slower speed and typically weak M4 armor. 

[waystin2]

Most don't take a King Tiger off concrete let alone use it in an offensive mode, you will rarely see a King Tiger enough for it to be more meancing then an M18.

Damn you stole my thunder Butcher!   That's what makes the Firefly's gun such a worthy perk.

[WWhiskey]

In my opinion.  The firefly should be the first perk tank,, the m4/76 and t34/85 shouldn't cost anything for late war
The panther next and the. The tigers.  #1 at 25 and #2 at 50
It is my feeling that all the gv's are to expensive for their ability since every one of them is so easily killed by aircraft!

[Tank-Ace]

OK butcher, so the M4(76) will never need more than 1 shot to kill anything in the game at under 1000yds or so, regardless of circumstances, glad to know the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger are grossly over-perked, and I'll be sure not to drive them when I get back  .

Tanks that can/sometimes DO require more than shot to kill:
Tiger II
Tiger I
Panther
M4(76)
T-34/85
Panzer IV

Tanks that potentially could (but I have yet to see in combat) need more than 1 shot to kill:
T-34/76
M4(75)

M4's if they're covering the bottom of their hull will almost be guranteed to need more than 1 shot to kill.
Tiger II's will ALWAYS need more than 1 shot to kill, since the M4 can't kill them from the front.
Tiger I will almost always need more than 1 shot to kill it.
Panther will usually need more than 1 shot to kill it.
And the Panzer IV will sometimes need more than 1 shot to kill it if you miss the turret, usually when hes angled.

The Firefly is basicly guaranteed to kill any tank but the Tiger II, Panther, and Tiger I in a single penetrating shot, regardless of hit location. And it will often one-shot Panthers and sometimes the Tiger I.

And about the damage, the current system seems to assign a damage value for each shell (infact, I'm almost sure of it, since the assign damage values to bullets and cannon shells). Firefly seems to have a higher damage value (based on its rarely needing multiple shots to kill the most common tanks at close-med range).



As for the rest of your post, its completly irrelevent to everything I was talking about. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the advantages you gain by driving a firefly. It just talks about the weaknesses of ALL tanks compared to the M18 and airsupport.