Spixteen perked ?

[waystin2]

cmon you seriously believe that a spit 16 is not easy mode 

Grizz and I have been discussing what is EZ and what is not.  My feeling is that we all have our EZ planes.  You do as well, the Ki-84.  It's EZ for you.  Grizz however on the other side of the argument has the stance that some planes are EZ and can help a good pilot kill multiple aircraft.  We started with original 6 enemy cons and have bargained down to 4.  It's getting less EZ by the minute.  So the question is: is it the pilot or the plane?   My feeling is that it is the pilot, not the plane that makes any given plane EZ.  I have to say that it is not my want to gang-bang Grizz, rather to show that the 16 does not give you anymore edge than any other bird when engaged by multiple coordinated opponents.  If Grizz lives throught it, then he deserves the Kudos.  If he does not then I feel my point is proven.  Nothing personal, just an experiment to back up claims made.

 

Way

[grizz441]

Let me be specific, random to you Sir.  You won't know what is coming out until you see it.  My thought is like you, we Pigs have our EZ planes that we like to fly so you may see a Spit 9, Hellcat, K-4 and a Spit 8 in the first round.  Who knows.  If that is acceptable to you, then we can get our testing done.  Your help is appreciated in running this experiment.  Perhaps we are on to something here and we can establish a criteria for what is truly EZ.

Random to me?  Um.... did anyone else interpret the challenge that way?  I'd much rather prefer 4 easy mode K4s (as 68zoom put it) against my non ez mode Spit16 than the 4 of you picking your best ez mode rides to outturn me with.

[Ardy123]

Quick glance at tour 138:
Top 10% players in K4 had 70% of the kills in that plane.
Top 10% players in 16 had 66% of kills in that plane.

Not that much of a difference to me, but I'm too tired to think about it.

Thats because in both cases, the kills are dominated by a very slim minority. The vast majority in both cases had between 0-3 kills the whole tour. Look at the top 10%, its flat almost except for the top 2%

here look at the distro of the top 10% k4


here look at the distro of the top 10% spit 16


now hold on, I'll make a chart with the top 4 sticks removed... hold on..

[waystin2]

Random to me?  Um.... did anyone else interpret the challenge that way?  I'd much rather prefer 4 easy mode K4s (as 68zoom put it) against my non ez mode Spit16 than the 4 of you picking your best ez mode rides to outturn me with.

We all have our best EZ mode rides don't we?  As far as our plane choices, the Spit 16 EZ has got you covered right?  It's EZ!  You said so yourself, although originally against a larger number of opponents.  How hard can it be?

Here it is final form:

Grizz in Spit 16
4 Pigs in their planes of choice(No perks)
Best of 5 rounds proves point.
Merge alt & location negotiable

Is this acceptable?   

[Vinkman]

I don't understand why this is hard to figure out. Perhaps you are like lawyers and the point is to make an argument even if you know your client is guilty.

Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.

The better the plane is at these attributes the bigger the 'window of opportunity' is to get a kill.  A pilot creates his window, while his opponent tries to shrink it. In creating opportunity to get a kill, a pilot must optimize his movements vs his opponent's movements. As the capability of the opponents aircraft inceases in any given attribute, that optimization gets harder and harder. As it also gets harder with the reduction in the attributes of his aircraft.  

The ability to optimize is the definition of pilot skill.

The planes with big attribute envelopes, like hispano armed Spits, N1k2s, Ki-84s require less optimization to get or keep a bandit in the 'Kill window'. Hence Easy Mode

Saying the pilot makes his own easy mode, and the plane is not a factor is kind of silly Way'.  

[Ardy123]

Luche is right, there isn't much of a difference, sans the top 4%... the curves are very similar. trying to analyze it quantitatively isn't working too well

k4



spit16

[Ardy123]

Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.

Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).

for example

FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance =  190
7) turn diameter = spit 16

looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.

[Vinkman]

Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).

for example

FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance =  190
7) turn diameter = spit 16

looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.

Only if you count wins and don't quantify how much you won by. For stall and turn performance the Spit wins by a mile. With the others being close, that means the Spit wins by a mile.  

edit: When I talk about performance envelope, that also impacts situational capability. Yes, any pilot in any plane can get lots of kills and have a High K/D, but only if he optimizes his situation. Choosing carefully what, when, and how he engages. A plane with a big flight envelope can be less selective and still get kills. hence easy mode.

[Changeup]

Ardy,

You would never fight a 16 in an angles fight...you'd E fight him to death.  Your example assumes the D9 is going to fight the 16 and play somewhat to the 16s strengths....you would never do that.

[grizz441]

We all have our best EZ mode rides don't we?  As far as our plane choices, the Spit 16 EZ has got you covered right?  It's EZ!  You said so yourself, although originally against a larger number of opponents.  How hard can it be?

Here it is final form:

Grizz in Spit 16
4 Pigs in their planes of choice(No perks)
Best of 5 rounds proves point.
Merge alt & location negotiable

Is this acceptable?  

It is easy, but that doesn't mean I can take on an entire squadron in one.  

You are being ridiculous.  I thought the renegotiated challenge was 4 random planes by a random number generator, not you guys "randomly" selecting your favorite ez mode aeroplane from the hangar.  My initial challenge was the four of you in 109K4's vs Me in a Spit16.  If you cannot accept that generous challenge then you have proven my point you just don't realize it.  4 of You, 1 of me.

If you're a little nervous at the prospect of losing, you should be because it is a reasonable possibility TBH. 

[2bighorn]

Although I agree with your premise, the spit16 being easier. this has limitations too (much like my poor attempt to quantitatively analyze it).

for example

FW190 D9 vs Spit 16
1) speed = 190 D9
2) firepower = tie between spit and 190 edging to the spit due to the flat trajectory of the hispanos
3) climb = very close, prob a tie
4) roll = 190 but again close
5) stall = spit 16
6) dive performance =  190
7) turn diameter = spit 16

looking at this one would say the 190 d9 and the spit 16 are on par, but I bet co-e, and the same skill pilot, a spit 16 will chew up a 190 d9 with ease.

Few observations

2) Hispanos are considerably more lethal. D9 has more ammo though. Still, adv Spit
3) Spit XVI climbs much better
4) I'd give advantage in roll to Spit XVI (the band where d9 has adv is very narrow)

The only real adv D9 has is its speed and that's the only reason why majority of D9 pilots are flying it.

[ink]

Grizz and I have been discussing what is EZ and what is not.  My feeling is that we all have our EZ planes.  You do as well, the Ki-84.  It's EZ for you.  Grizz however on the other side of the argument has the stance that some planes are EZ and can help a good pilot kill multiple aircraft.  We started with original 6 enemy cons and have bargained down to 4.  It's getting less EZ by the minute.  So the question is: is it the pilot or the plane?   My feeling is that it is the pilot, not the plane that makes any given plane EZ.  I have to say that it is not my want to gang-bang Grizz, rather to show that the 16 does not give you anymore edge than any other bird when engaged by multiple coordinated opponents.  If Grizz lives throught it, then he deserves the Kudos.  If he does not then I feel my point is proven.  Nothing personal, just an experiment to back up claims made.

 

Way

I think its 50/50 plane/pilot...as you go up the ladder in skill level...the plane takes on much more of a deciding factor....two equal pilots, equal situation, one in a crappy plane one in a ez mode plane, the EZ mode plane will win every time.


I do understand what you are saying, some planes are EZ mode for particular sticks, that's because they most likely put the time into them though.

I used to think it was all pilot but it most certainly is not.

Few observations

2) Hispanos are considerably more lethal. D9 has more ammo though. Still, adv Spit
3) Spit XVI climbs much better
4) I'd give advantage in roll to Spit XVI (the band where d9 has adv is very narrow)

The only real adv D9 has is its speed and that's the only reason why majority of D9 pilots are flying it.

absolutely

[Changeup]

Bighorn,

Exactly.  The D9 can easily set the tempo of the fight with her speed advantage.  It's like the knuckleheads that try to turn fight Brews and Zekes...you are playing to that planes strengths.....why? 

[Ardy123]

Ardy,

You would never fight a 16 in an angles fight...you'd E fight him to death.  Your example assumes the D9 is going to fight the 16 and play somewhat to the 16s strengths....you would never do that.

Its very hard to 'out e' a spit 16 if they start out co-e.

Bighorn,

Exactly.  The D9 can easily set the tempo of the fight with her speed advantage.  It's like the knuckleheads that try to turn fight Brews and Zekes...you are playing to that planes strengths.....why?  

Again, if they start out at the same speed and same alt, the spit 16 will get the kill.

The D9 strengths only shine when it enters the fight faster or above the spit 16 (which is the case in the ma) but then again they did not enter fight co-e.

[waystin2]

I don't understand why this is hard to figure out. Perhaps you are like lawyers and the point is to make an argument even if you know your client is guilty.

Speed, firepower, climb, turn, roll, visibility, acceleration, stall behavior, and dive performance are the big factors in what makes a plane easy to get kills in. Other factors like toughness, fuel capacity, etc matter as well but to a lesser degree.

The better the plane is at these attributes the bigger the 'window of opportunity' is to get a kill.  A pilot creates his window, while his opponent tries to shrink it. In creating opportunity to get a kill, a pilot must optimize his movements vs his opponent's movements. As the capability of the opponents aircraft inceases in any given attribute, that optimization gets harder and harder. As it also gets harder with the reduction in the attributes of his aircraft.  

The ability to optimize is the definition of pilot skill.

The planes with big attribute envelopes, like hispano armed Spits, N1k2s, Ki-84s require less optimization to get or keep a bandit in the 'Kill window'. Hence Easy Mode

Saying the pilot makes his own easy mode, and the plane is not a factor is kind of silly Way'.  

Although I don't think the issue is silly, I do agree that there are reasons why some aircraft have the ENY's that they do.  The Spit 16 has an appropriate ENY based on it's performance capabilities.  However, as you said the pilot is the optimizer that makes a given plane a powerhouse.  Bunnies in a 109, Grizz or Kappa in 262's, Dodger in a Hellcat, Bruv in a Spit of any type, Gixer in the Yak, 999000 in B-17's, I could go on.  No one plane guarantees an EZ road to kills without the skill and experience of a good pilot behind it.  Hence the attempt to recreate a legendary sortie by a past player in a Spit 16 against 6 enemy cons. 


 

Way