Author Topic: Jap tank  (Read 1290 times)

Offline Skyguns MKII

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2011, 03:39:18 PM »
As usual no historical data to back up his opinion. Heres a quick read on the glorious tank operations of the Japanese  :lol
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/history.htm Do scroll to the bottom to read the accounts of the glory reaped by Jap tankers against the Yanks and Brits.
Visions of a Pacific Kursk comes to mind.  :ahand



ack-ack just  :ahand

Offline ozrocker

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 07:35:27 PM »
ack-ack just  :ahand
No, actually you just FAIL :aok



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Offline Rich52

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 08:34:18 PM »
Your first two few opinions contradict themselves. The fact is the IJA NEVER used armor the same way Germany did early in the war. Not EVER. At the
khalkhin-gol incident it was true they were outnumbered in tanks but they still had at least 135 and used them the way they did the entire war. Poorly made tanks, using poorly thought out tactics and
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very bad japanese command decisions/doctrine
. Unfortunately for them they went against a guy namd Zhukov who actually did know what he was doing. How to use combined arms and massed tank formations, a lesson the IJA never did learn in all their years of war.

This is all so well documented, as is the quality of IJA tanks and the steel used for them, that I just cant argue it with two people who only blubber about books, "as if Im going to bother reading them over this". Find evidence I can read by clicking a mouse, which you cant. The pacific war wasnt really a tank war, oh I know there were some tanks, due to terrain, and tank manufacturing/quality was a low priority for their high command manufactureing decision making. The truth is neither side considered the Pacific terrain as very good for classic tank tactics. Because of this the Allies aimed most of their tank production at Europe and North Africa, The IJA had theirs limited by design and a limited manufactureing base. They had some good tacticians but pretty much nobody listened to them. Even the few occasions they had success didnt translate into much. A suicidal IJA soldier with a tank mine in his hands was a bigger threat to our tanks then their tanks were. Yaknow theres a reason why "great tank battles" on WW2 history TV channels never show any pacific ones.

A good source http://www.scribd.com/doc/60050507/Tank-Battles-of-the-Pacific-War-1941-1945 enjoy.

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interesting series of "opinions" but off the mark a bit. Japan started out using their armor much the same way germany used it in the early war, mobile infantry support. before they declared war on the u.s. they had the upper hand in armored combat. the khalkhin-gol incident was a russian victory by sheer numbers (400+ soviet tanks plus artillery and air support) and very bad japanese command decisions/doctrine. I cant continue to argue this with two guys who, one of whom just mentions book names, and a second only tells me to "read more books". http://books.google.com/books?id=L2wlf8tSyMEC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=tarawa+tank+battle&source=bl&ots=FZn-8faBEe&sig=tt4DvMtLpLXzro0TmPidEwPCIVE&hl=en&ei=T81FTrukIezLsQKb7IySCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=tarawa%20tank%20battle&f=false Does this sound like a classic "tank Battle"?

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nice attempt to try an spin it as "piss poor japanese manufacturing".

i don't normally side with ack-ack but, in this case...you should read more books.

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A year after flinging the Germans back from the capital, Zhukov planned and executed the Red Army's offensive at the Battle of Stalingrad, using a technique very similar to Khalkhin Gol, in which the Soviet forces held the enemy fixed in the center, built up a mass of force in the area undetected, and launched a pincer attack on the wings to trap the enemy army.


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The Japanese, however, made no major strategic changes. They continued to under-estimate their adversaries, deploying piecemeal units instead of mass units, emphasizing the courage and determination of the individual soldier to make up for the lack of firepower, protection, or overwhelming numbers. The problems that faced them at Khalkhin Gol, most importantly their deployment of only two light infantry divisions, and two tank regiments, would plague them again when the Americans and British recovered from their defeats of late 1941 and early 1942 and turned to the conquest of the Japanese Empire.
   http://www.enotes.com/topic/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 08:37:40 PM by Rich52 »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 10:50:39 PM »
Your first two few opinions contradict themselves. The fact is the IJA NEVER used armor the same way Germany did early in the war. Not EVER.

Who claimed the IJA used similar armored tactics as the Germans did?  Japan's armored doctrine was similar to that of the US in that the tank was seen as a tool for directly supporting the infantry and were rarely allowed independent action.  Again, this is a typical pattern with you.  You can't argue the original points so you create these "artificial" points to argue when they were never brought up to begin with or even part of the original argument.  


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At the khalkhin-gol incident it was true they were outnumbered in tanks but they still had at least 135 and used them the way they did the entire war. Poorly made tanks, using poorly thought out tactics and . Unfortunately for them they went against a guy namd Zhukov who actually did know what he was doing. How to use combined arms and massed tank formations, a lesson the IJA never did learn in all their years of war.

Again, what evidence or any other data do you have that you can show that the tanks of the Imperial Japanese Army were poorly made?  You've been asked previously to cite any sources but you haven't.  No one argued that poor tactics, like the withdrawal of air support after local IJAF commanders launched a devastating air raid against the Soviets or poor logistical planning were the two major contributors to the Japanese losing this battle.  However, you will not find one credible source that will cite "poorly made tanks" or other equipment as the cause.


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This is all so well documented, as is the quality of IJA tanks and the steel used for them, that I just cant argue it with two people who only blubber about books, "as if Im going to bother reading them over this".

The issue with the Japanese tanks wasn't the poor quality of steel to used in their construction, because it wasn't.  The problem was one of priority over the use of limited resources like steel.  When hostilities commenced in in the Pacific, priority for steel went to the IJN and IJAF for warship and aircraft production and the resources needed by the army were either diverted or curtailed.  

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Find evidence I can read by clicking a mouse, which you cant.

I've already listed a couple of books that give the information I've cited in my posts in this thread.  It is not my fault that you find it very difficult to read a book, that is why I had originally recommending someone that doesn't have this difficulty in reading it to you.


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The pacific war wasnt really a tank war,

Never claimed it was, all I did was correct your original misconception about the use of tanks in the Pacific Theater.

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oh I know there were some tanks, due to terrain, and tank manufacturing/quality was a low priority for their high command manufactureing decision making. The truth is neither side considered the Pacific terrain as very good for classic tank tactics.

Because tank on tank combat wasn't part of the Imperial Japanese Army's armor doctrine, the IJA saw the tank as a tool for supporting infantry, which was the same doctrine followed by the United States until the end of World War II.  It was the Germans and to some lesser extent the Soviets and British, that saw the tank as more than just infantry support.  So, yes you are correct that a lot of the island that were fought on weren't ideal for "tank vs. tank" combat but on the islands that did have terrain suitable like Saipan you did see limited tank vs. tank combat in larger than company strength.  In Saipan, Vol. Hideki Goto led his 9th Tank Regiment in a night tank counter attack against Col. Jim Riseley's First Battalion, Sixth Marines which later broiled down to a tank on tank engagement when Marine Shermans and LVT(A)-4  amtanks got into the battle.  Out of 50 tanks, Goto lost 38 tanks and his regiment was only left with 12 tanks, of which most were in dire need of repair.


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Because of this the Allies aimed most of their tank production at Europe and North Africa, The IJA had theirs limited by design and a limited manufactureing base.

No, it wasn't because the terrain wasn't "ideal for classic tank combat" it is because the defeat of Nazi Germany was the main priority for both the United States and England.  It was decided at the beginning of the war, the main war effort would be in defeating Hitler, while we held the Japanese in check until war was over in Europe and we could then devote full resources in destroying Japan.  That is the sole reason why the ETO and MTO received the majority of tanks that were built.  This just wasn't with tanks, it was with everything.  It was worse in the CBI, they got the PTO guys' hand me downs.

Japan's limitations in their designs again was based on priority and poor strategic thinking, not due to any "limited manufacturing base" or poor quality of steel.  

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They had some good tacticians but pretty much nobody listened to them. Even the few occasions they had success didnt translate into much.

In my opinion, that problem is the direct result of the mentality of both the IJA and IJN high command, they were very slow to learn from mistakes and battles and were so caught up in their own mythos that it really did blind them severely in making some critical strategic decisions.  Even Yamamoto was guilty of this, which can be evidenced in his strategy to defend the Solomons before his death.

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Yaknow theres a reason why "great tank battles" on WW2 history TV channels never show any pacific ones.

It's a shame because the night charge of the 9th Tank Regiment would make a cool episode but I mostly suspect that unlike the majority of tank battles in the ETO/MTO, the tank battles didn't start off as such but rather attacks in support of infantry that developed into tank battles when opposing armor showed up.

ack-ack

« Last Edit: August 12, 2011, 11:49:01 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Skyguns MKII

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 11:31:58 PM »
No, actually you just FAIL :aok



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Hey keep it kind. Its a forum and trolling is fround uppon thankyou
« Last Edit: August 13, 2011, 12:06:37 AM by Skyguns MKII »

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2011, 01:52:25 AM »
Your first two few opinions contradict themselves. The fact is the IJA NEVER used armor the same way Germany did early in the war. Not EVER. At the
khalkhin-gol incident it was true they were outnumbered in tanks but they still had at least 135 and used them the way they did the entire war. Poorly made tanks, using poorly thought out tactics and . Unfortunately for them they went against a guy namd Zhukov who actually did know what he was doing. How to use combined arms and massed tank formations, a lesson the IJA never did learn in all their years of war.

This is all so well documented, as is the quality of IJA tanks and the steel used for them, that I just cant argue it with two people who only blubber about books, "as if Im going to bother reading them over this". Find evidence I can read by clicking a mouse, which you cant. The pacific war wasnt really a tank war, oh I know there were some tanks, due to terrain, and tank manufacturing/quality was a low priority for their high command manufactureing decision making. The truth is neither side considered the Pacific terrain as very good for classic tank tactics. Because of this the Allies aimed most of their tank production at Europe and North Africa, The IJA had theirs limited by design and a limited manufactureing base. They had some good tacticians but pretty much nobody listened to them. Even the few occasions they had success didnt translate into much. A suicidal IJA soldier with a tank mine in his hands was a bigger threat to our tanks then their tanks were. Yaknow theres a reason why "great tank battles" on WW2 history TV channels never show any pacific ones.

A good source http://www.scribd.com/doc/60050507/Tank-Battles-of-the-Pacific-War-1941-1945 enjoy.
   http://www.enotes.com/topic/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol
you really don't know what you're talking about or have any reading comprehension do you?  :rofl

you need to read your own references again until you comprehend what is written.
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Offline Rich52

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2011, 08:27:43 AM »
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The issue with the Japanese tanks wasn't the poor quality of steel to used in their construction, because it wasn't.  The problem was one of priority over the use of limited resources like steel.  When hostilities commenced in in the Pacific, priority for steel went to the IJN and IJAF for warship and aircraft production and the resources needed by the army were either diverted or curtailed. 


Gee now he's qouteing me directly. And I never even wrote a book.
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The lousy Japanese armor really was an almost non-player in the war. Yes I know they were used in a few attacks, maybe one or two were successful, but mostly they got clobbered "the few tanks they actually built and deployed". The IJN got almost all the quality steel output Jap industry could produce meaning their tanks got lousy steel for construction and not much of it either. The type 97 had armor of from 8-25mm protecting it and the plate was crapola to begin with.

Another well documnted Historian. Arent you going to tell me what books "I" should read ? Or should I just hang my head in shame over your rediculous two Liner ?
 
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you really don't know what you're talking about or have any reading comprehension do you? 

you need to read your own references again until you comprehend what is written.
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2011, 08:35:29 AM »
Hey keep it kind. Its a forum and trolling is fround uppon thankyou
well he's right you two tried to one up akak and both failed... :noid
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Offline Rich52

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2011, 08:59:23 AM »
well he's right you two tried to one up akak and both failed... :noid

Thats what these things turn into. Little playmates and cartoon air buddies coming down in support of their 'mo. None of them offering any evidence or hard actual historical data to counter the original points. Its a shame, cause threads like these, if played out on an intellectual level, could be interesting. Most of all if discussed on a gentlemanly level. Even a silly two sentence post could be interesting if actually backed up by data and research. But this, "I know 'Mo and not you so your wrong" stuff I left behind in kintergarten".

Honestly, sometimes I think the wrong ape left the trees for the savanahs.
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2011, 09:15:45 AM »
Which Japanese tank had the SHVAK 20mm, the same one used in the LA's, as it's main gun?
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Offline ACE

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2011, 09:24:52 AM »
Yawn
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Offline USCH

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2011, 10:18:20 AM »
Normally I'd agree. And while I respect your "wish" the fact is their tanks were not only bad, they were few, and were used poorly. The PTO was not a real tank theater, most of all for the IJA.
you could say the U.S. tanks in the ETO were out classed by the German tanks or the Soviets tanks vs. The germans.. it was the massive numbers that overwhelmed them (and things like airpower and comand) so ruling out a tank cuz it was used poorly is a poor point.. it is a tank and can attack. We have a jep and everyone loves that thing..

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2011, 11:09:43 AM »
Another well documnted Historian. Arent you going to tell me what books "I" should read ? Or should I just hang my head in shame over your rediculous two Liner ?
when you can spell something as simple as ridiculous properly you may have a chance.

amazingly even a 13 year old could read your own references and comprehend more than you do. the kalkhin gol incident in no way reflects the manufacturing quality of japanese armor, nor does the entire pacific campaign, obviously something you do not fully comprehend.

key fact #1, japanese army command forbade the use of aircraft during the conflict after the first successful raid on a soviet airfield, june 27 1939. there is nothing documented as to why the decision was made but air superiority proved to be a key to success on the ground later in the war, chalk it up to military short sightedness.

key fact #2, when zhukov brought in the soviet armor, there was very little soviet infantry in the battle compared to the number of japanese. zhukov brought a large number of bt-5s (1933 design) and bt-7s (1935 design). the japanese situation was the opposite, lots of infantry, not a lot of armor. the bulk of the japanese armor cam with the 3rd and 4th armored regiments which totaled something in the line of 150 tanks and armored cars. the japanese 3rd armored regiment had a small number of type-97 and type-89b tanks. the 4th armored regiment had a small number of type-95 and type-89a tanks. they did not expect to encounter as much soviet armor as what zhukov brought in.  

key fact #3, both sides fought to stalemates repeatedly throughout the conflict until zhukov, with armor superiority and air support, used tactics very similar to what was used against the german army at stalingrad. japanese command viewed the soviets to be inferior to their own people and thus underestimated their military capabilities. a mistake they repeated in 1941 against the u.s.

i find it amusing that you associate 4 or 5 to 1 odds with poor materials and manufacturing processes. by all accounts the bt-5 and bt-7 weren't much better than the japanese armor, considering a molotov cocktail could put one out of commission. until the kalkhin gol incident the japanese didn't need massive amounts of armor. if you actually look at the construction of both the early soviet and japanese armor, they were of similar quality. something that was proven to the soviets against early german panzers during operation barbarossa.

here's a good read for you:
http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/drea2/drea2.asp#16

one of the better online resources for some military history.


as for the concept of armored infantry support, you really should study it a bit more. the japanese, british and u.s. primarily used armor in what we now look at as classic infantry support roles. heavy infantry supported by armor used to destroy enemy emplacements. the germans started out using mechanized infantry supported by tanks, artillery and close air support. the soviets used armor to spearhead their attacks with infantry and artillery support. there are always examples of variations and exceptions to the concept but if you bother to study it, it all boils down to the same basic idea.
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Offline Void

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2011, 12:30:58 PM »
At least it would bring a variety of tanks in the game.
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Offline Rich52

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Re: Jap tank
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2011, 12:46:33 PM »
"sigh" this isnt a thread about the kalkhin gol incident . All that you have said has already been covered. Do remember there was 6 years of war after kalkhin gol.

What I said was their tanks werent very good, their steel plate quality was poor, they werent used well, and they had little impact in the war.

Honestly I dont know what kind of point your trying to make. The IJA was so thrilled with their Kalkhin gol tanks they removed them from theater and designed bigger guns for them. But even then my points were directed at their war with us, the western Allies. And even your 'moe doesnt dispute the steel quality and low priority of tank construction decisions by their High command. Maybe you should start a separate kalkhin gol incident thread if you want to impress ?
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