Jap tank

[dirt911]

Your first two few opinions contradict themselves. The fact is the IJA NEVER used armor the same way Germany did early in the war. Not EVER. At the
khalkhin-gol incident it was true they were outnumbered in tanks but they still had at least 135 and used them the way they did the entire war. Poorly made tanks, using poorly thought out tactics and . Unfortunately for them they went against a guy namd Zhukov who actually did know what he was doing. How to use combined arms and massed tank formations, a lesson the IJA never did learn in all their years of war.

This is all so well documented, as is the quality of IJA tanks and the steel used for them, that I just cant argue it with two people who only blubber about books, "as if Im going to bother reading them over this". Find evidence I can read by clicking a mouse, which you cant. The pacific war wasnt really a tank war, oh I know there were some tanks, due to terrain, and tank manufacturing/quality was a low priority for their high command manufactureing decision making. The truth is neither side considered the Pacific terrain as very good for classic tank tactics. Because of this the Allies aimed most of their tank production at Europe and North Africa, The IJA had theirs limited by design and a limited manufactureing base. They had some good tacticians but pretty much nobody listened to them. Even the few occasions they had success didnt translate into much. A suicidal IJA soldier with a tank mine in his hands was a bigger threat to our tanks then their tanks were. Yaknow theres a reason why "great tank battles" on WW2 history TV channels never show any pacific ones.

A good source http://www.scribd.com/doc/60050507/Tank-Battles-of-the-Pacific-War-1941-1945 enjoy.
   http://www.enotes.com/topic/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

You look for data on the internet expecting it to be accurate which makes you a fool, now the thing is about books they dont get deleted and whats in them can't be changed once it has been put down on paper.

Books been around a hell of alot longer than internet thats for sure, I believe if im correct books date back to the days of the Roman Empire.

Ill put it this way books/read em I guarantee you 9 out of 10 of them will be accurate.

[Ack-Ack]

Gee now he's qouteing me directly. And I never even wrote a book.
Another well documnted Historian. Arent you going to tell me what books "I" should read ? Or should I just hang my head in shame over your rediculous two Liner ?
  

It's actually a recap of my first post in this thread.  I do like how you finally came around and agreed with my original point.

The Japanese tanks weren't bad at all, the problem was that Japanese tank designs were a victim of the Japanese High Command's myopic strategic thinking.  Japan never expected to have a total general war with the United States, it only expected hostilities to last 6 months, a year at the least and to be made up of sharp, defining engagements.  Japan's whole war and logistical strategy was based on this, which is why Japan never fielded or designed any medium or large tanks that were comparable to the western countries, it never expected hostilities to get to the point where those tanks were needed. 

Thats what these things turn into. Little playmates and cartoon air buddies coming down in support of their 'mo. None of them offering any evidence or hard actual historical data to counter the original points.

I offered evidence, actual historical data and even cited my sources to back up my points.  I guess since they are books and not some website, I guess in your mind that just doesn't count as accurate historical data.

Its a shame, cause threads like these, if played out on an intellectual level, could be interesting.

Unfortunately, in this thread and in others you've posted in, you've shown that you're unable to discuss anything on an "intellectual level".  You can't even properly debate a point, let alone try and carry on an intellectual discussion.

Most of all if discussed on a gentlemanly level. Even a silly two sentence post could be interesting if actually backed up by data and research. But this, "I know 'Mo and not you so your wrong" stuff I left behind in kintergarten".

Again, I cited my sources and you yet to post any credible source to back up your claim that Japan's tanks were poorly made. 


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

"sigh" this isnt a thread about the kalkhin gol incident . All that you have said has already been covered. Do remember there was 6 years of war after kalkhin gol.

I believe you were the first one to introduce the Battles of Khalkhin Gol into this thread when you tried to convince us that your claim of poorly made Japanese tanks was a major contributor to their loss to the Soviets.

What I said was their tanks werent very good, their steel plate quality was poor, they werent used well, and they had little impact in the war.

And you were wrong about the quality of the manufacturing of their tanks.

Honestly I dont know what kind of point your trying to make.

Well, for starters we showed you were wrong.

The IJA was so thrilled with their Kalkhin gol tanks they removed them from theater and designed bigger guns for them. But even then my points were directed at their war with us, the western Allies. And even your 'moe doesnt dispute the steel quality and low priority of tank construction decisions by their High command. Maybe you should start a separate kalkhin gol incident thread if you want to impress ?

Again, typical Richie behavior.  When you've been proven wrong in a thread, you try and change the argument to something else entirely.  Previously in this thread, you did it when you tried to change the subject and argue that we were comparing Japanese tank tactics with that of Germany, now you're trying again.

I can see why you put up such a defense mechanism, it must be tiring being wrong so many times.

ack-ack

[Skyguns MKII]

well he's right you two tried to one up akak and both failed...

Hey im not saying m18 shouldnt come first 

[Skyguns MKII]

At least it would bring a variety of tanks in the game.

THATS WHAT THE WISH IS ABOUT, I KNOW JAP TANKS DONT COMPARE BUT I RATHER HAVE A JAP TANK IN SEA OR AVA THEN A M8

[AHTbolt]

Best tank Japan had were the early M3s captured when Bataan fell. Only picture I have ever seen of these with the rising sun was in squadron/signal Stuart book.

[gyrene81]

Best tank Japan had were the early M3s captured when Bataan fell. Only picture I have ever seen of these with the rising sun was in squadron/signal Stuart book.

thin armor and small guns (by western standards) aside, for small tanks they held their own against m-3 stuarts in the first phillipine invasion, even some shermans went down in ambush situations during later battles when the u.s. turned the tables.

"sigh" this isnt a thread about the kalkhin gol incident . All that you have said has already been covered. Do remember there was 6 years of war after kalkhin gol.

you bought the subject into the light as your prime example of "poor japanese quality", and you were wrong, even based on your own reference.

What I said was their tanks werent very good, their steel plate quality was poor, they werent used well, and they had little impact in the war.

it escapes me how you come to such blatantly erroneous conclusions. their tanks were as good as anything they had to engage until the u.s. entered the war. again, the armor was "thin" compared to western standards, not poor quality. the japanese mills produced steel as good in quality as any other country throughout the 1930s and into the early 40s. yeah japanese tanks had so little effect on the war that they were used in defeating british forces in burma, u.s. forces in the phillipines and don't forget a very large chunk of china.

Honestly I dont know what kind of point your trying to make. The IJA was so thrilled with their Kalkhin gol tanks they removed them from theater and designed bigger guns for them. But even then my points were directed at their war with us, the western Allies. And even your 'moe doesnt dispute the steel quality and low priority of tank construction decisions by their High command. Maybe you should start a separate kalkhin gol incident thread if you want to impress ?

oh so no other country replaced obsolete equipment or attempted to improve it in any manner, the japanese were the only ones. yup, you're a bonafide genius. the last person i had to deal with on these boards who spouted so much wrong information from erroneous conjecture was a teenager, i sincerely hope you have a similar excuse.

again, with limited resources of raw materials, which incidently was just one of the reasons for the invasion of china and japanese military command focused more on heavy use of naval, air and infantry assets, building 40 ton tanks with large guns was not a priority. the smaller vintage tanks that had already been produced did the job until faced with overwhelming numbers at kalkhin gol and superior armor when the u.s. began it's pacific offensive.

[Rich52]

yup, you're a bonafide genius. the last person i had to deal with on these boards who spouted so much wrong information from erroneous conjecture was a teenager, i sincerely hope you have a similar excuse

Boy your a hostile little cuss aintya ? Heres my last link on the glory filled History of Japanese tanks in WW-2. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7373250/15 I admit the IJA tanks did well until they faced other tanks or anti-tank guns.

Go ahead, get the last word in. Guys like you always have to get the last word in.

[gyrene81]

Boy your a hostile little cuss aintya ? Heres my last link on the glory filled History of Japanese tanks in WW-2. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7373250/15 I admit the IJA tanks did well until they faced other tanks or anti-tank guns.

Go ahead, get the last word in. Guys like you always have to get the last word in.

i haven't gotten hostile yet and i'm sure i won't be the one to get the last word in. did you know that in old japanese traditions like bushido, there was glory and honor in death? as far as the japanese were concerned their tanks helped provide many glorious victories.

i'm guessing you didn't fully read your last reference, if you had your continued sarcasm wouldn't be so blatantly obvious. before i quote a passage from your last reference i suppose just for clarification in case it escaped you early on in this discussion, not one person said japanese tanks were as good as panzers, tigers, t-34s, or shermans. all of which incidentally also suffered losses to other tanks and anti-tank weapons, as you so conveniently attempt to overlook.

before 1942 when japanese tank production dropped heavily, japanese tanks were very capable against other early tanks like the m3 stuart, bt-5, t-26, hotchkiss h-35, vickers mk-e, etc... in fact your last reference states of the japanese invasion of singapore on page 18: "singapore fell on february 15, due in no small measure to the effective use of tanks." the author goes on to state further down the same page: " the british 2nd royal tank regiment fought a series of costly rear guard actions in burma. by the time the survivors of the unit reached british lines in india, only one stuart tank remained in action." i don't know about you but, that doesn't sound very much like "piss poor japanese armor" to me.

what is very amusing is that if we all followed your logic, considering construction, mechanical reliability and numbers lost in battle, the t-34 would be the worst tank ever put on the modern battlefield, but strangely enough russia continued to produce the tank for decades after the war.

[dirt911]

Boy your a hostile little cuss aintya ? Heres my last link on the glory filled History of Japanese tanks in WW-2. http://www.scribd.com/doc/7373250/15 I admit the IJA tanks did well until they faced other tanks or anti-tank guns.

Go ahead, get the last word in. Guys like you always have to get the last word in.

Unlike you I never give the last word I understand something few don't last word means nothing, but for people like you a word from the wise it is better to stay quiet and listen and learn than to open your trap and show everyone how foolish you truly are.

[ozrocker]

well he's right you two tried to one up akak and both failed...

Exactly! Wasn't trolling. I read exactly what was said in posts.

And again he fails

BTW, it would be nice to have Japanese Armor if Scenario Required it                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                   Oz

[Skyguns MKII]

Exactly! Wasn't trolling. I read exactly what was said in posts.

And again he fails

BTW, it would be nice to have Japanese Armor if Scenario Required it                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                   Oz

I'm sorry OK, should of said differently. Now enough of this forum B.S. and lets chill my friend