Sprial Climb question

[JustEric]

I often get into tnb fights that go into a flat turn (merry go round).  When I'm flying a spit against a F class plane I point the nose up while in the flat turn and do a spiral climb.  I don't actually climb but I go down vertically slower than the F class plane.   The F class plane runs out of air before I do and they either crash (most of the time) or flatten out and give me their 6.  My question is,  what makes the spit retain altitude better than the F class plane?  What factors can I look at when comparing planes to see if a spiral climb will be effective?  I was thinking it's a combination of the climb rate and acceleration that keeps you above the other plane in a spiral climb. 

I know the spiral climb is not the end all be all ACM maneuver but it sure seems to be one of the most important to perfect. 

For Molly =>   

Thanks,
Pollux

[Big Rat]

Pollux,

Are you talking a 109F4? vs a spit 5.

 
BigRat

[PFactorDave]

Pollux,

Are you talking a 109F4? vs a spit 5.

 
BigRat

Pretty sure he is talking about F4ish planes

[morfiend]

 Pollux

  I think you answered your own question,climbrate and acceleration, however drag also planes a huge part.A streamlined watercooled engine,like in the spit,tends to have much less drag than a big wide radial like in a corsair or hellcat.

 Sure there's other factors involved and we could get into a great aero discussion but basically your correct.




   

[JustEric]

Thanks for the quick responses.  Yes, I was talking about the F4U, F6F, FM2 and F4F (F series) planes. 

I didn't think about drag yet but I suspect that has a fuzzy relationship to Acceleration.  Acceleration is probably determined by power minus drag.  But as a general rule, I'll bet you can use Acceleration as a indication of drag also. 

I'm looking for some general rules that I can use to make a plane to plane specific tactics sheet.  For example, Spit 9 versus F4u-1.  Spit 9 should use a spiral climb.  Spit 9 should use loops.  Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn.  Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt.  Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1.  Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1.  The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.

The way I envision the tactic sheet is to create one sheet for each plane.  Down the page you have every other plane listed.  Across the page you have tactics (like flat turn, spiral climb, yo yo, loop, scissor, rolling scissor ...) and maybe even comparative attributes (faster or slower at 1k alt, better turn rate with flaps, better turn rate without flaps, better climb rate  ...).   The idea is that when I'm flying I have a cheat sheet to remind me how to fight my fight when I run into a plane I'm not used to flying against. 

Back to looking for some general rules that I can use formulate tactics.  From the previous responses it sounds like I might be able to compare two planes Climb and Acceleration rates to determine if a spiral climb could be used as a tactic.  For example, a Spit 9 has a better climb rate and faster acceleration then an FM2.  So, the conclusion is that the Spit 9 can employ a spiral climb as an effective offensive/defensive maneuver.   That all sounds good until you look at the comparison between the P38j and the F4u-1.  The P38 as a better climb rate and also has better acceleration then the F4u-1.  The conclusion would be that the P38 could use the spiral climb as a tactic against the F4u-1.  I'm not sure but I don't think the P38j could use a spiral climb against a F4u-1.  I think the last thing the P38 should do is flat turns.  Back to square one   Maybe I need to consider another variable. 

Does anyone know if someone has already created a tactics cheat sheet? 

Thanks and please respond if you have any thoughts. 

Pollux

 
 

[TequilaChaser]

plane to plane specific tactics sheets might possibly give players a false sense of security


the major factor that always comes in to play between the 2 planes in the fight is that one will initially be the "Energy Fighter" while the other will be the "Angles Fighter" technically speaking.....

the plane with the Higher E, regardless if it is the F4U-1 or if it is the Spit 9....... will be the "E"nergy Fighter plane.......... and will remain the Energy Fighter until the pilot of the plane bleeds his "E" to equal or below the "E" of the opposing plane, and the slower plane will be the "Angles Fighter" and will remain the Angles Fighter until the pilot equalizes the Energy between the 2 planes or until the slower pilot works their way to having the most Energy...... at this time the planes switch up........

other factors that come in to play will be:
a players skill level in the plane he is in vs their opponents skill level of the plane their opponent is in
a players overall skill level in game vs their opponents over all skill level in game

time would be better served learning the fundamentals of BFM,  of Energy Management, of Situational Awareness........... instead of trying to focus on interpetation of tricks or tactics for certian plane types


regarding the original Topic of this thread.... you ask about a "Spiral Climb"  but talk about being the last one to the deck  which is more along the lines of a "Spiral Dive" ........ although you are describing a turn fight where you are using yo-yos and end up losing altitude over the course of the engagement


hope this helps


TC

[2bighorn]

Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn.  Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt.  Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1.  Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1.  The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.

Actually, Spit IX is more capable than you give it credit for and can hold its own vs F4U-1/F4U-1A, including all situations you listed above.

[bozon]

What factors can I look at when comparing planes to see if a spiral climb will be effective?  I was thinking it's a combination of the climb rate and acceleration that keeps you above the other plane in a spiral climb.  

It is all about the available power (per mass) of the plane. Since the G loads will be greater than 1, induced drag will play an increasing role as the G loads increase. The Spit has both aspects in favor - It has good power for its weight and its induced drag is quite small (parasitic drag is not so low for its weight by the way). The F4U, F6F etc planes are high wingloaded planes which means that typically they produce higher induced drag, in particular at low speeds (they must maintain higher angle of attack to pull the same G as a spit).

If the maneuver is an actual climbing spiral or a descending spiral depends on how much E is burned in the maneuver vs. the engine power. The F series will have a much less favorable energy budget that the spit and will get worse as the spiral is tightened.

I'm looking for some general rules that I can use to make a plane to plane specific tactics sheet.  For example, Spit 9 versus F4u-1.  Spit 9 should use a spiral climb.  Spit 9 should use loops.  Spit 9 should not try to out turn the F4U-1 in a flat turn.  Spit 9 should not follow F4U - 1 in yo yo's at the same alt.  Spit 9 should not try to scissor with the F4U-1.  Spit 9 should not follow rolling scissors with the F4U-1.  The important thing to remember is that the Spit 9 cannot beat the F4u-1 in a slow turning fight and it should use it's acceleration and climb rate to push the F4u-1 to the ground.

That is completely incorrect. Spit 9 turn a hell of a lot better than the F4u. You have to keep a clear distinction between instantaneous and sustained turns, as well as between turn radius and turn rate. The F4u are exceptional at instantaneous maneuvers and can achieve surprisingly small turn radius. The spits are better at any sustained maneuvers due to the better energy budget and will eat the F4u if it comes down to turn rate. The Spits 9,8,16 are perhaps the best E fighters in the game when the fight is kept below 300 mph, without giving up much of their TnB ability (Note that I said E fighters, not BnZ which is only 1 form of E fighting).

The F4u looses energy fast in high G maneuvers. It will keep doing very tight and fast turns as long as it keeps loosing speed and altitude. Once the speeds drop to around 200 mph and the F4u can no longer pull into a blackout, the spit will have a massive turn rate advantage and the energy gap will open quickly in favor of the spit. The problem is that at this point most pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and turn radius: they either try to slow down with the F4u and blow toss out the window the spit's energy advantage, or keep fast and pull on the stick as hard as possible to maximize the turn rate just to fly into the F4u guns because they do not understand the geometry of the fight.

[coombz]

Thanks and please respond if you have any thoughts.  
  

I'm a mediocre pilot at best, but I'll offer my thoughts anyway!

Spit 9 vs F4U-1, my general plan is to keep it turny until the F4U deploys flaps, then use the vertical to out-E him...works even better in a Spit8 or 16

I don't think the cheat sheets are a great idea, after a while you just get to know what tactics to employ vs what planes...flying them all yourself especially helps identify their weaknesses :]

[JustEric]

It is all about the available power (per mass) of the plane. Since the G loads will be greater than 1, induced drag will play an increasing role as the G loads increase. The Spit has both aspects in favor - It has good power for its weight and its induced drag is quite small (parasitic drag is not so low for its weight by the way). The F4U, F6F etc planes are high wingloaded planes which means that typically they produce higher induced drag, in particular at low speeds (they must maintain higher angle of attack to pull the same G as a spit).

If the maneuver is an actual climbing spiral or a descending spiral depends on how much E is burned in the maneuver vs. the engine power. The F series will have a much less favorable energy budget that the spit and will get worse as the spiral is tightened.
That is completely incorrect. Spit 9 turn a hell of a lot better than the F4u. You have to keep a clear distinction between instantaneous and sustained turns, as well as between turn radius and turn rate. The F4u are exceptional at instantaneous maneuvers and can achieve surprisingly small turn radius. The spits are better at any sustained maneuvers due to the better energy budget and will eat the F4u if it comes down to turn rate. The Spits 9,8,16 are perhaps the best E fighters in the game when the fight is kept below 300 mph, without giving up much of their TnB ability (Note that I said E fighters, not BnZ which is only 1 form of E fighting).

The F4u looses energy fast in high G maneuvers. It will keep doing very tight and fast turns as long as it keeps loosing speed and altitude. Once the speeds drop to around 200 mph and the F4u can no longer pull into a blackout, the spit will have a massive turn rate advantage and the energy gap will open quickly in favor of the spit. The problem is that at this point most pilots do not understand the difference between turn rate and turn radius: they either try to slow down with the F4u and blow toss out the window the spit's energy advantage, or keep fast and pull on the stick as hard as possible to maximize the turn rate just to fly into the F4u guns because they do not understand the geometry of the fight.

I think your response pretty much supports what I was saying.  When I fly against a F4U-1 to F4U-4 with a Spit 9, I know all I have to do is survive until the e states are turned in my favor.  Usually that takes from 30 seconds to a couple minutes.  Before the e states are equalized, the F4u uses it's superior instantaneous turn rate (with flaps) and superior turn radius to get angles.  If I can survive long enough, the F4u will go below my e state and have to rely on it's speed and alt to feed its turning hunger.  If I play into the F4u's game, I will cut my throttle and try to pull in behind while it uses copious amounts of alt to feed its turn, and give up my adv.  That is why I stay high, let the f4u continue to use it's energy (speed/alt) until it's all gone and then go in for the kill.  Trying to turn with the spit, means you cut your throttle, and give up your comparative advantage.  Basically, the f4u should lose the fight every time unless the Spit pilot makes a mistake.  Of course if the F4u has a substantial energy advantage they may get the kill with their instantaneous turn rate and turn radius advantages. 

[ink]

plane to plane specific tactics sheets might possibly give players a false sense of security


the major factor that always comes in to play between the 2 planes in the fight is that one will initially be the "Energy Fighter" while the other will be the "Angles Fighter" technically speaking.....

the plane with the Higher E, regardless if it is the F4U-1 or if it is the Spit 9....... will be the "E"nergy Fighter plane.......... and will remain the Energy Fighter until the pilot of the plane bleeds his "E" to equal or below the "E" of the opposing plane, and the slower plane will be the "Angles Fighter" and will remain the Angles Fighter until the pilot equalizes the Energy between the 2 planes or until the slower pilot works their way to having the most Energy...... at this time the planes switch up........

other factors that come in to play will be:
a players skill level in the plane he is in vs their opponents skill level of the plane their opponent is in
a players overall skill level in game vs their opponents over all skill level in game

time would be better served learning the fundamentals of BFM,  of Energy Management, of Situational Awareness........... instead of trying to focus on interpetation of tricks or tactics for certian plane types


regarding the original Topic of this thread.... you ask about a "Spiral Climb"  but talk about being the last one to the deck  which is more along the lines of a "Spiral Dive" ........ although you are describing a turn fight where you are using yo-yos and end up losing altitude over the course of the engagement


hope this helps


TC

QFT

read this and then reread it 

[Big Rat]

Co E, Co alt, lets say 300mph speeds both planes.  A well flown Corsair can immelman up twice, and is gong to be at about 100mph at the top of the 2nd one.  I'd venture to say the spit 9 is going to be in a better situation speed wise at the top of the 2nd, and with far superior acceleration can definitly get above the hog on the third merge.  From the 2nd merge on it's the spits job to get above the hog, it's the hogs job to survive, since up is not much of an option at this point.  The hog after the 2nd verticle move should be in E conservation/rebuilding mode, the spit has to be carefull not to let the hog hide enough E below it, for a flap dump and a quick pull up shot (you know that thing I pull on you, when you think you are safe).  This is the reason I'm so keen on teaching a hog pilot to gain the high ground early, becouse later it's a much harder option due to the hogs poor climb and acceleration compared to the spit.  Pollux you've been sparring with me for long enough now, you know if that hog gets above that spit, the spit is in trouble.  But if the spit can fight a verticle energy managment game with the hog, the hog has the harder fight.  What I teach for the hog goes for almost any plane in the set, fight for the high ground. you want to be fighting down while your opponent fights up.  Giving up the verticle early in a fight is a bad idea in almost all cases.  It's the same if I was fighting with an F4U or an A20, I want that high ground early as possible.  Besides Pollux, aren't you supposed to be flying the F4U

 
BigRat

   

[JustEric]

Hey Big Rat    Yes, I remember many fights with your F4U where you surprised me with your e state.   

Thanks to everyone for your input!
Pollux 

[mechanic]

A huge benefit of the spiral climb is that you are forcing the enemy to turn to try to get guns on you. Rather than a straight climb where they can shoot at you. So it is in it's simplest form the same as a flat turn to evade being shot but with the element of climb added. In this way it is possible for a lesser turning/better climbing plane to use it's climb advantage combined with it's turn disadvantage to produce a safe out-climbing acm than a straight climb. Not relating to your question particularly, just throwing it out there!

[BaldEagl]

A huge benefit of the spiral climb is that you are forcing the enemy to turn to try to get guns on you. Rather than a straight climb where they can shoot at you. So it is in it's simplest form the same as a flat turn to evade being shot but with the element of climb added. In this way it is possible for a lesser turning/better climbing plane to use it's climb advantage combined with it's turn disadvantage to produce a safe out-climbing acm than a straight climb. Not relating to your question particularly, just throwing it out there!

Not only that but if the guy following doesn't have enough E and trys to cut inside the turn he has to go almost vertical possibly leading to a rope or, if he starts to stall he might have to level or dive giving you his canopy or his six.  Either way it's a good thing as long as you have the E to do it and he doesn't.