F3 mode has got to go

[surfinn]

Yeah but it's a damned A20, who cares?  A20s are used mostly for base defense once the FH's have been dropped, so F3 mode inconveniences the offensive team holding the numerical advantage and altitude advantage?  Oh boo hoo for them.  

TBH I wish IL2s would have F3 reenabled, not have A20s join them in the neutering.

This thread is not soaly about a20s. I'll admit they are a pet peeve of mine along with ju88s, as a fighter. I don't think its neutering them at all but rather making them better flyer's in the same plane. It's also a lot more realistic. Like you have said in several post if it cant be historically backed then your against it so why aren't you against F3?

Here is a suggestion that may serve the historical point of view as well as my own. instead of f3 mode Have the gunners call out on text buffer enemy ac 109f 5k. 2 o'clock, and as the  gunners are killed they go silent.

[Meatwad]

Nope. Flying buffs requires SA

[guncrasher]

This thread is not soaly about a20s. I'll admit they are a pet peeve of mine along with ju88s, as a fighter. I don't think its neutering them at all but rather making them better flyer's in the same plane. It's also a lot more realistic. Like you have said in several post if it cant be historically backed then your against it so why aren't you against F3?

Here is a suggestion that may serve the historical point of view as well as my own. instead of f3 mode Have the gunners call out on text buffer enemy ac 109f 5k. 2 o'clock, and as the  gunners are killed they go silent.

so you want lots of new coading just because an a20 shot you down .  and last I checked in ww2 gunners didnt send a telegram to the pilot when they saw enemy ib.

semp

[surfinn]

no semp they didn't they had that new fangled thing called an intercom. (idiot)

[Karnak]

no semp they didn't they had that new fangled thing called an intercom. (idiot)

You're the one who suggested they telegram the pilot....

[guncrasher]

no semp they didn't they had that new fangled thing called an intercom. (idiot)

so then why text buffer?  you are the idiot.  if it was intercom then it's vox.

semp

[surfinn]

See Rule #4

[guncrasher]

dude you are the one who was dumb enough to get shot down by an a20 then come here and want to make it easier on you.

semp

[surfinn]

Ya semp well its not about me getting shot down by a A20 never has been. I'm absolutely sure that's what you want to turn this thread into but it is not about that. So please stick to the subject if ya dint want f3 to be removed then say so in a intelligent way like -1. with comment on why it doesn't work for you. (idiot)

[skorpion]

Ya semp well its not about me getting shot down by a A20 never has been. I'm absolutely sure that's what you want to turn this thread into but it is not about that. So please stick to the subject if ya dint want f3 to be removed then say so in a intelligent way like -1. with comment on why it doesn't work for you. (idiot)

your calling semp an idiot? honestly, a duck with the size of a small tortilla chip is smarter than you.

this thread has obviously been made because you have been downed by an A-20. probably deserved it because you flew like an idiot.

[VonMessa]

Ya semp well its not about me getting shot down by a A20 never has been. I'm absolutely sure that's what you want to turn this thread into but it is not about that. So please stick to the subject if ya dint want f3 to be removed then say so in a intelligent way like -1. with comment on why it doesn't work for you. (idiot)

-1

F-3 mode is a fame concession made to balance the fact that, in bombers, there are multiple gunner positions.  These gunners were afforded the use of an inter-ship intercom by which they could communicate with each other.

In Aces High, this is not the case.  The coding allows only one gunner position to be filled, regardless of how many positions are available per particular plane and because of this, allows F3 mode in bomber type aircraft with multiple gunner positions to make up for the lack of multiple "eyes in the sky".

The Havoc is armed as follows:
4× fixed 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns in the nose
2× flexible 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns, mounted dorsally
1× flexible 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Vickers K machine gun, mounted ventrally

Planes such as the IL2, Bf 110 series, etc. only have one rear-facing gunner position, and therefore do not have F3 mode available.  Even if one took a gunner in planes with only a tail-gunner position, the view is still only limited to that of a forward or aft view, unlike other bombers with different combinations of a dorsal, ventral, forward, aft, or port/starboard view.

This is why the Havoc has F3 view enabled and it is the reason it was removed from the IL-2.  The biggest threat from the A-20 are the nose guns which, at .303 caliber and set at optimum convergence (meaning that when grouped in such a fashion the the edges of each round touch and do not overlap), the maximum diameter of an entry hole (considering the diameter of the hole as an inscribed circle into which the shot group can fit into) is .731" or < 3/4", per shot group landed which is smaller than the diameter of a quarter (.944").



Upon further speculation and review, if one got one's self into a position where one allowed one's self to get peppered by a sufficient number of less than quarter-sized holes to destroy or render one's aircraft non-airworthy, it is the fault of the one being shot at and not related to any flaw or faulty lines of code in the software.

Carry on.

 

[Karnak]

Damn you guys are as dumb as a box of rocks. If you don't get what I was laying down then wow

We got it, it is you who are missing the point here.

[kvuo75]

Von.. the a20 has 8x50bmg's

[Vinkman]

-1

F-3 mode is a fame concession made to balance the fact that, in bombers, there are multiple gunner positions.  These gunners were afforded the use of an inter-ship intercom by which they could communicate with each other.

I believe the A20 have .50 cals. 

F3 mode should be disabled on planes that manuever to kill enemies with guns fired by the pilot. This is the reason F3 was turned off on the Il-2. Most A20 pilots fly them in fighter mode as well. If the pilot is going to dog fight you and kill you [A20s are very good turny birds] they should be limited to a pilots view. F3 is gamey in the A20, the same way it's Gamey in an IL-2

For the record F3 mode in Buff formations is not required in my opinion. It's extremely easy to push the 2 key, and 3 key, and 4 key and have quick look aorund the plane. I would say that is even easier than in real life where a gunner had to yell into a squalk box  to tell all the other gunners where the bandits were. F3 in buffs is overkill as a solution to "many eyes to see the enemy"

BUT...I don't think F3 in buff formations provides a real benefit, and many have said they love to view the planes flying from the F3 mode because it's cool. So I wouldn't disable it over it's Buff gamey-ness.

But But if hangar assignments [IL-2 moved to Fighter hangar] is the only way to avaoid F3 mode disparities, AND that can't fixed simply in the code, I'd be for eliminating F3 in flight for everything before we moved more bombers to the fighter hangar to correct A20 gamey-ness.

So I guess +1 for fixing the A20. 

[Krusty]

vonmesa, the Il2 wasn't changed because it has no ventral gunner. It was changed because very specific tactics were constantly being used to abuse the system so that most of its sorties were an abuse of F3 in a way the plane should or could never have flown.

It had nothing to do with the bomber classification as much as the way this "bomber" plane was wildly abused and used in AH. Just the overall manner it's used as a fighter against base takes once FH are down, the way it would bob and weave in F3 in negative G porpoise flops (which you can't do in F1 mode because you'd crash and you couldn't see where the enemy was to do it), and all that jazz.

Because of this, the changing of the IL2 is more an exception than the rule. Like the Chog being perked. It was done only as a reaction to the way AH mis-used the item in question.

Going back to F3 without consideration of the IL2's loss of it, it is based on the craft class rather than the gunner placement.

It definitely is easy to abuse, and it definitely is a crutch. I saw enough HTH folks crying about losing F3 in certain rooms way back to notice that. However it is a case-by-case basis and purely decided by HTC. There is no single rule to define its application in AH. You are right in that it is designed to simulate multiple eyes in multiple directions, but this is not dependent on the gun position those eyes are placed. It's boolean. Either on or off.

P.S. If we were to ever receive a Ju88C or solid nose variant, I'd definitely want F3 disabled on it. They were flown as heavy fighters.



Has anybody ever suggested the only planes to get F3 should be those that have formations? Seems like a reasonable "general rule" (with any exceptions HTC deems warranted down the line)