Stuka Pilot. excellent book. link included.

[Citabria]

so there was another that landed this many times under fire and picked up downed air crews?

"Stukas approaching from the West-calling all Red Falcons: you are to attack the Stukas immediately, there are about
twenty-in front a single Stuka with two long bars-it is sure to be Squadron-Leader Rudel's squadron, the one that always
knocks out our tanks. Calling all Red Falcons and A.A. batteries: you are to shoot down the Stuka with the long bars"
Flg./Off. Markwardt gives me a rough translation while we are in the air. Fickel says with a laugh:
"If they aim at No. 1 you can bet they'll hit No. 2"

He generally flies as my No. 2 and therefore speaks from experience.
Ahead of us and below us Ivans with motor vehicles, artillery and other stuff on a road between isolated woods. The
heavy flak is putting up a good show, the Red Falcons are already there, Aircobras attack us; I give the order to attack. A
part of the formation dives onto the trucks and lorries, a smaller section onto the A.A. batteries, all maneuvering
frantically.

The fighters now think their opportunity has come. Flak clouds hang close to our aircraft. Shortly before he
goes into a dive Fig./Off. Fickel gets a direct hit in his wing; he jettisons his bombs and flies off in the direction from
which we have come. His aircraft is on fire. We have dropped our bombs and come out of our dive. I gain height to see
where Fickel has got to. He makes a landing in the middle of quite unsuitable country, furrowed with ditches and full of
potholes, tree stumps and other obstacles. His aircraft skips over two ditches like a rampageous he-goat; it is a miracle that
he has not pancaked long ago. Now he and his gunner clamber out. The situation is bad: cavalry, followed by tanks, are
already converging on his aircraft from the woods, naturally intent on capturing the crew. The Aircobras are now
attacking us furiously from above.

I call out: "Someone must land at once. You know I am no longer allowed to."
I have a horrible feeling, because I have been expressly forbidden to land and it goes against the grain to consciously
disobey orders. We are still banking low above the fallen aircraft; Fickel and Bartsch down there can surely not imagine
that anyone can land safely under the circumstances. The Soviets are gradually closing in and still no one sets about
landing; outmaneuvering the fighters makes full demands on every crew's attention. The decision to land myself in spite
of everything is a hard one to make, but as I see it, if I do not act now my comrades are lost. If it is at all possible for
anyone to rescue them, I have the best chance of anybody. To disobey an order is, I know, unforgivable, but the
determination to save my comrades is stronger than my sense of duty.

I have forgotten everything else, the consequences
of my action, everything. I must bring it off. I give my orders:
"7 Flight: you are to attack cavalry and infantry at low level.
8 Flight: you are to circle at moderate height to cover Fickel and me.
9 Flight: you are to stay up and divert fighters from this intended maneuver. If fighters dive, then 9 Flight is to attack them
from above."

I fly very low over the scene of the forced landing and select a patch of ground which may serve, with a bit of luck, to
land on. Slowly I open the throttle; now we are over the second ditch. Throttle back, a terrific jolt, for an instant my tail is
in the air, then I come to a stop. Fickel and Bartsch run for their lives. They are quickly alongside. Ivan's bullets have so
far not hit anything that matters. Both are in behind, I open the throttle. I am seething with excitement. Can I make it?
Will my aircraft become airborne before it hits an obstacle on the ground and is smashed to pieces? Now comes a ditch. I
snatch up the aircraft, clear it, and again my wheels lightly bump the ground. Then she stays up. Slowly the tension eases.
The squadron closes up and we get home without loss.

[moot]

Gonna sound off the wall philosophical, but what is nazism?  It's nothing but a speck of miserable stupidity in the grand scheme of things - in a cosmic, dozen+ billion year perspective.

If some guy who also happened to espouse that pathetically wretched M.O. otherwise shines thru as an examplary.. pilot, or tactical leader, or whatever, that baby (ahem) can't be thrown out with the bath water without ironically paralleling to that other nazi hallmark - burning books.  Burning that boundless richness - because as good as unlimited in variety - of human character that furnishes the whole landscape of ~100,000,000,000 humans who've lived and died over millenia each with their more or less original peculiarities and quirks... That's not right either.

Either?  Either as in neither that nor idolizing "a nazi".  Which Fester didn't do.  The nazi isn't the topic.  Agree or disagree that there's some discrete part of Rudel the airman that's remarkable, but turning your nose up at it isn't proper dispassionate objectivity.

I'm probably not going to check this topic again, so a pre emptive reply - you don't have to admire or "convert" yourself to living a barbarian life of cruelty if you happen to be mesmerized by the animal nature of, say, a cheetah.  That doesn't inherently make you a blood thirsty, inhumanely cruel, carnivorous serial killer.
What Rudel did well was the airmanship, etc.  Which "the other side" also partook in and produced other eminent instances of in the form of pilots like Yeager etc.  Some of it was motivated by nazism in Rudel's case?  That particular aspect isn't what Fester's on about.

If I understand him right.  YMMV

TIOLI, IANAP, WLF

[Guppy35]

No one is debating he was a good or even exceptional pilot.  As I said, I'm glad that interests Fester and that he found inspiration in Rudel's words.

I find that I can't separate the words from the man. 

In terms of guys dropping in to pick up downed pilots, it happened on both sides.  Some times it worked, some times it didn't.

In terms of the best pilot, there is no answer.  Put everyone in the same plane on the same mission after having the same training and have them fly over and over until the last man is standing.  Even then you can predict mechanical break downs, and any other unpredictable events.

So it goes.

Hows the 410 project coming moot?

[Charge]

Well I thought this book interesting as well and I also found Rudel's adoration of Hitler quite amusing (comparing his comments to those of Manstein's on Hitler's character). I think Rudel was an excellent soldier in technical sense but as a person he was not popular and I understand he was not liked even among his own pilots because he often ordered them to do the impossible often with fatal consequences.

And yes he was an excellent pilot too.

***

"I was astonished to learn that many German officers really believed America would re-equip surviving German military groups and invite them to join us in an extra chapter of the war, in which we would both turn against Russia."

Many Nazis or those who joined them fought for political reasons against communism so that kind of thought was not uncommon. It is curious how Russia turned into an enemy so fast after the war for western powers that is almost seems like a political and strategic miscalculation to help Russia in the first place in form of war material deliveries which left them very strong after the war ended and the ideological rivalry started to kick in. But if western powers had attacked when Russia was losing there was a danger of Russo German armistice by Russian initiative for them to gain breath and that German war machine would have pushed the Allies off the European continent, and after that nothing would have stopped them. Of course with strong Russia the task for Allies to regain France and rest of western Europe was very much easier even if it was predicted that it would create a new equilibrium of power in the world which I understand was something that USA did not object to, once they were drawn into war. But that may be just blabberings of conspiracy theorists, although Eisenhower may have indirectly warned about that in his farewell speech (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm). Sry for OT.

-C+

[moot]

Hows the 410 project coming moot?

I only finished moving in yesterday. Got some stuff left to do over next few days (clean & repaint new place, etc) and after that I can get back to normal.  Last four days I literally didn't see pass, just constantly busy, no time for anything.

[33Vortex]

Naive realism has been refuted by philosophers the last 2500 years, perhaps more. The whole sphere of politics is saturated with naive realism, it is a prerequisite for politics to exist at all. When I read Rudel he seem very much human to me. Exceptional yes, but human, a man who came to terms with and accepted his own mortality.


"Only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Oldman731]

7 times he landed behind enemy lines to pick up his downed aircrews. The 7th time stuck in the mud they set off on foot far behind enemy lines to their own lines... he is the only one who makes it back.

This is why I suggested that his account has to be taken with some skepticism.  Rudel's book is full of stories of his amazing feats, yet many of them haven't been, or can't be, confirmed through other sources.  His tale of knocking the guns out of the hands of his captors, outrunning the Russian army, racing over fields, swimming through bone-chilling rivers and so on, could well be true, but you do wish that someone else survived to say that it was true.  He claims to have destroyed 500 tanks single-handed.  Maybe true, but it's a remarkable number nevertheless and he's the only one who can confirm the "kills" - from a diving airplane, while trying to avoid the ground, flak, interceptors &c.  His sniper kill of the Il2 with the last shot from his 37mm - maybe yes, maybe no, he's the only one to say.

So a lot depends on Rudel's credibility, and that's where things like the opinions of his fellow pilots and his own odd view of history and who's-doing-what-to-whom play a big part.  And frankly, based on such things, I don't trust him.

- oldman

[Citabria]

regardless, getting lost in the numbers which do not matter and may or may not be accurate I can not say one way or the other.

the guy was an athlete. ran and did sports for fun when not flying. it can not be understated how effective physical fitness is when doing heavy maneuvering and flying in bad conditions from sunrise to sunset. This physical training was likely responsible for his survival during 5 years of uninterupted combat flying. Simply being alive after all that is the feat that I am interested in.

In that I am curious as to how this even happened that this guy was not killed. He was very good and also very lucky.

the numbers add up by way of not being dead and thereby default your experience increases because you are not dead even after being shot down 32 times.

the guy could not be taken out of his flying unit and no matter what anyone in charge said about him being grounded he kept flying and in the process being wounded in the shoulder while escaping, the right leg while flying and flying with a plaster cast on it then 5 weeks later breaks every cardinal rule of attack flying and makes so many low passes on a is2 that will not light that he is finally hit by AA in the left leg which is more or less blown off of his body. then 6 weeks later he is flying again with his right leg only as he does not have a prosthetic yet made.

His survival is just as inconcievable as his story and yet there he is after all of it missing a lot of pieces and still breathing. I do not find the taking out of ground vehicles at all remarkable in the sense that it is not believeable. the russians and germans both had large success with th 37mm anti tank aircraft and in Aces High we can see just how effective they were when firing into the vulnerable parts of the engine deck and etc.

Do not take it word for word as gospel. in fact you would likely be well served not to take gospel literally either.

As moot said people love to dismiss things once they find one disagreable point and do not take the whole picture that is being presented. The intent of the picture being painted may or may nto be embelished. regardless it does give a good narative of the attack pilots view of the war as they are shuffled from base to base and after stalingrad constantly being moved back with a russian sea of advancing armies always on their heals.

The numbers did not matter to the red army. all rudels success was at most tactical. There was no stoppping russia and I think the story and narative is compelling in that it gives a glimpse into the fall of germany from his perspective.

This thread was started because I found parallels in his story with the flying Aces High that made his book more enjoyable to read because I could picture the tank attacks having seen and experienced simulated versions of them.

the way he describes that the static front was not the best place to attack the tanks as the aaa was to heavy. that it was best to catch the t34s on the move in the field whiel they advanced before the flak could be brought up. that sounds earily familiar to how hard it is to attack tanks with wirrbles or base ack around.

Your looking for a black and white truth fiction indicator which when I read it was not my interest. I prefer to take the facts that I know can be verified and then read the story and not pretend to know one way or the other the validity of it all beyond the premise that this is a glimpse into the daily operational life of a ju87 stuka attack pilot that survived 5 years of war outnumbered in an obsolete airplane.

[VonMessa]

I liked the book.  I found it a good read.

For me, Rudel is a fascinating character.  I do not mean that I idolize him, what I do mean is the tenacity of the man (if true) commands my respect but, what he is tenaciously clinging to, absolutely disgusts me at the same time.  That is what fascinates me:  the fact that I respect and am disgusted by the man, all at the same time.

The biggest problem, for me at least, is that I find it hard to separate individuals from their beliefs.  Even if someone does good deeds, while espousing a sketchy or twisted doctrine, I find it hard to trust them.  This is what kills it for me and makes it hard to believe that everything in the book is 100% accurate and prevents me from considering the man a "hero" of any kind, especially since he had become a poster boy for the Nazi propaganda machine.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
 
- Joseph Goebbels

There is no denying the fact that he was in good physical condition and a superb pilot, but I would not go so far to say he was the "best".
One also cannot deny that he had some pretty big brass balls either, but I would wager that to be a statement that could be applied to pretty much any Stuka pilot on the Eastern front at that time.

As for the Stuka G?

Would be a welcome addition as far as I am concerned 

[Ardy123]

There is no denying the fact that he was in good physical condition and a superb pilot, but I would not go so far to say he was the "best".
One also cannot deny that he had some pretty big brass balls either, but I would wager that to be a statement that could be applied to pretty much any Stuka pilot on the Eastern front at that time.

I'm always surprised that any German made it out alive, it was a total meat grinder, the numerical adv the allies had was mind-blowing.

I remember reading an excerpt from an interview with Erich Heartmann where he stated that once in late 44 (maybe even early 45), he and 4 others went up against a formation of 1000 allied planes, and managed to escape alive 

[Oldman731]

I'm always surprised that any German made it out alive, it was a total meat grinder, the numerical adv the allies had was mind-blowing.

I remember reading an excerpt from an interview with Erich Heartmann where he stated that once in late 44 (maybe even early 45), he and 4 others went up against a formation of 1000 allied planes, and managed to escape alive 

Kind of reminds you of what the Polish airmen faced in September, 1939 doesn't it?

- oldman

[JUGgler]

Hell surviving as a Stuka pilot for those years deserves a TOAST with the finest whiskey available!!!




JUGgler

[Ardy123]

Kind of reminds you of what the Polish airmen faced in September, 1939 doesn't it?

- oldman

yes, the fact that some people managed to survive unsurmountable odds is amazing regardless of the country the fought for.

[Babalonian]

He was an extraordinary pilot and combat leader that did overcome tons of adversity and difficult challenges, but he was extremely morally challenged.

I enjoy his book and reading of his exploits, but much like Oldman, I insist it be taken with a grain of salt.

[moot]

yes, the fact that some people managed to survive unsurmountable odds is amazing regardless of the country the fought for.

Frankly the idea of being, in reality, strapped into a cockpit with just 1 schwarm to back you up, and coming up on 100 enemy fighters..  At that point it doesn't even matter if you're Rudel or Vanilla Ice.