zeeks eating taters?!?!

[M0nkey_Man]

would you expect a single 30mm to completely remove an undamaged wing?

on a zero? yes

[Babalonian]

30mm has been nurfed.  No other way to put it, and I've been trying not to make any quick judgements, but it takes what seems like 2-3x the bullets for the same old results.  Talking to Bustr, he thinks the radical switch as it is currently coincides with a respectable balistic analist's charts that places the Mk108 closer on par to a NS-37, and that it is likely HiTech is now using those balistic tables or something else similar to them. 

I don't mind it's increased dispertion, but compared to the infamous blenheim photos 3+ HE rounds (and the AP in between them) to the wingroot of a B-25H shot from an attacker comming in at a high forward direction should do more than just catch on fire (the wing should be GONE).  I don't know, I guess I'm just whining, don't mind its lethality being taken down a notch from where it used to be at (~90% chance to instantly jib a relatively tough fighter that happened to wander into a single 30mm tater), but its like shooting nerf footballs at buffs since and I greatly miss it's "robust" results that it used to have against the heavies in game (especialy since our radiators and oil lines are still made outa glass).

[bustr]

Go ahead Babsie and make me the bad guy.

It was an anecdotal observation from compareing offline (Mk108 vs. NS-37) slow motion testing films from last October 2010 against slow motion testing films of the MK108 and NS-37 as of the 2.25 2011 release. The 2010 October MK108 dispersion patterning looks smaller than the 2011 dispersion patterning offline. In 2010 it took fewer 30mm to dismantle a Ju88 from 200 yards missing the cockpit on purpose than it did with the NS-37. Testing was in single taps from a K4 and YakT.

I repeated the tests with the 2.25 2011 release and the 30mm dispersion patterning seemed broader at 200 and beyond with more random flyers along with it taking on average the same number of 30mm rounds as the NS-37 to dismantel a Ju88. Anecdotaly this looked a bit like one of Tony Williams writeups on cannon round power comparisons for WW2. If anything as individual rounds the NS-37's power number is higher than the MK108 in the Tony Williams chart. The MK108's efficiency is better when ganged in fours because of it's low recoil. The NS-37 is a very powerful single round but the recoil makes it very inefficent for air to air combat. Thats why the NS37 came about with a smaller shell volume to reduce recoil and increase efficiency.

On the other hand there has been a really crapola router first Texas hop on ATT's path from california to the game servers all summer that is probably the real culprit behind all of this........

 

[Babalonian]

Go ahead Babsie and make me the bad guy.

It was an anecdotal observation from compareing offline (Mk108 vs. NS-37) slow motion testing films from last October 2010 against slow motion testing films of the MK108 and NS-37 as of the 2.25 2011 release. The 2010 October MK108 dispersion patterning looks smaller than the 2011 dispersion patterning offline. In 2010 it took fewer 30mm to dismantle a Ju88 from 200 yards missing the cockpit on purpose than it did with the NS-37. Testing was in single taps from a K4 and YakT.

I repeated the tests with the 2.25 2011 release and the 30mm dispersion patterning seemed broader at 200 and beyond with more random flyers along with it taking on average the same number of 30mm rounds as the NS-37 to dismantel a Ju88. Anecdotaly this looked a bit like one of Tony Williams writeups on cannon round power comparisons for WW2. If anything as individual rounds the NS-37's power number is higher than the MK108 in the Tony Williams chart. The MK108's efficiency is better when ganged in fours because of it's low recoil. The NS-37 is a very powerful single round but the recoil makes it very inefficent for air to air combat. Thats why the NS37 came about with a smaller shell volume to reduce recoil and increase efficiency.

On the other hand there has been a really crapola router first Texas hop on ATT's path from california to the game servers all summer that is probably the real culprit behind all of this........

 

Thanks Bustr!  Was out of town (and haven't been back long enough to play a bunch since I left).

OK, so we gotta take the AT&T snafu into account, so I'll err away from saying there has been anything changed in its reduced lethality against fighters (besides if the first HE round doesn't get them, the second one almost surely does).  But changed it has, many are in agreement with this being a recent change that they have also noticed, and we're fortunate enough that you have some documented trials for comparison.

The one jaw-gaping incident from over a week ago that I remember and that caused me to be sour enough to make the above post was a pass on a B25H.  I suppose the first logical thing to do is, besides realizing the B25H is supposed ot be tough, check and see if its using an older or newer damage model in the game.  Then with a complete understaning of the B25H and its model, I can complain/whine/cry/bi!@# about why the wing was still attached to the plane.  And we can also add for camparison the results of a single tank round (HE or AP) ripping through the same area of the wing.

[bustr]

Tests carried out at Rechlin showed that with an "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits could destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber. I will assume "could" came about by everything in the testing process being an ideal condition. Stringing up a MK108 round inside of a Blenhiem then remote detonating it comes to mind. I think B25's were built stronger than Bleni's.

B25's were built robust just like the B17 and B24. If there has been a game change, it should now take more than a single Mk108 round to bring down a B25H if the cockpit is never hit. Something similare to my recent 200 yard single round testing against a Ju88 missing the cockpit on purpose. On average it took 2-3 rounds idealy placed to remove a wing. Maybe I should test against a B25H..................

[RTHolmes]

I put 3x taters into the LHS of a B25 fuselage last month - he didnt even twitch

[Babalonian]

Tests carried out at Rechlin showed that with an "M-Shell" with 85 grains of explosive, five hits could destroy a B-17 or B-24 bomber. I will assume "could" came about by everything in the testing process being an ideal condition. Stringing up a MK108 round inside of a Blenhiem then remote detonating it comes to mind. I think B25's were built stronger than Bleni's.

B25's were built robust just like the B17 and B24. If there has been a game change, it should now take more than a single Mk108 round to bring down a B25H if the cockpit is never hit. Something similare to my recent 200 yard single round testing against a Ju88 missing the cockpit on purpose. On average it took 2-3 rounds idealy placed to remove a wing. Maybe I should test against a B25H..................

Well, "if" or not, 3 M-shells and everything in between them to the right wing-root general area (lets say for sure dead between the engine nacel and fueselage) from a high-forward pass, and the only thing that happened was it caught on fire....  ok, so maybe the bug/issue to complain about is how come it only took such a strong and robust wing less than 10 seconds to completely burn itself off/free from the rest of the aircraft?  Given what it just chewed up and spit out, he probabley should of been able ot make it 1/2 way back to his base.

[bustr]

I'm rebuilding the 9 step walk up and covered porch to my 100 year old house right now.

But, I will perform the offline testing regiment with the K4 and YakT against a B25H and post something up into the Aircraft and Vehicals section linking back to this posting. Remember that now the Mk108 dispersion cone at 200 yards is about 14 feet in diameter. If you are pulling the trigger and firing all guns, the MG131 fires an "M-Shell" if the HE version is being modeled in the game. That could be the multiple explosive contacts you are really seeing when flying the K4. Or the MG151/20 with the Ta152. I test offline firing only the MK108.

MG131 ------ 750M/sec -- 900 rnd/min
MG151/20 -- 720M/sec -- 680-750 rnd/min
MK108 ------ 500M/sec -- 650 rnd/min

I keep forgeting 8 hours of walking up and down 9 stairs is alot of stair walking......