Author Topic: Degrees per second  (Read 1737 times)

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 11:05:04 PM »
I could be wrong but it seems to me most planes in AH perform best just as the stall horn begins to sound.  That still allows you to pull into the early buffet to gain angles for a shot or to ease the bank to gain E for the vert.  If you use that as a gauge there's no real thought that has to go into it during a fight as you have an audio queue.
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Offline Klam

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2011, 02:57:28 AM »
Am not sure if I have my sounds set right.
Am still chopping and changing sound packs.
No disrespect to the guys that made them but some planes sound like sewing machines.

Anyone recommend a good stall buffet sound?
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Offline FLS

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2011, 04:45:06 AM »
I could be wrong but it seems to me most planes in AH perform best just as the stall horn begins to sound.  That still allows you to pull into the early buffet to gain angles for a shot or to ease the bank to gain E for the vert.  If you use that as a gauge there's no real thought that has to go into it during a fight as you have an audio queue.

The stall horn tells you that you're close to the lift limit at your current speed. It doesn't tell you if you're at your best rate or smallest radius of turn.

Offline morfiend

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2011, 04:09:55 PM »
You can always go into the TA and just do maneuvers watching the G-meter without having to worry about getting shot while doing them. It can give you a feel for the maneuver and E usage.

G-meter as a drag indicator, new one to me.


 Klam may have heard that from me,I often refer to the Gmeter as the drag meter as per FLS's post to explain induced drag. I was explaining that because we cant feel the "G" load that the G meter is the only way to tell how hard your turning. I try to show players how to unload the airframe and reduce G load to manage Energy,doing simple Cuban 8's,and have them note speed and alt as they're doing this.

  When they pull too many G's their speed is reduced and the alt they climb to is lower and I explain that it's the drag from excess G's that do it,so think of the G meter as a drag meter.....  Might not be 100% correct but it gets the point across.





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Offline Klam

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2011, 04:54:01 PM »
Yes Sir, it was you that told me that. :salute

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Offline morfiend

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2011, 04:57:49 PM »
Yes Sir, it was you that told me that. :salute




  Ya Klam I thought so when I read your post,clearly read FLS's post on induce drag as he's more correct than I am..... :o






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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2011, 10:32:10 PM »
The stall horn tells you that you're close to the lift limit at your current speed. It doesn't tell you if you're at your best rate or smallest radius of turn.

Yes, I know that.  I'm just saying that with most planes they coincidentally seem to be the same.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2011, 10:50:16 PM »
Yes, I know that.  I'm just saying that with most planes they coincidentally seem to be the same.

Since you hear the stall horn at various turn rates that seems unlikely. It's the stall horn and appropriate speed together that give your best sustained turn rate.

Offline FLS

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2011, 10:58:19 PM »

  Ya Klam I thought so when I read your post,clearly read FLS's post on induce drag as he's more correct than I am..... :o






    :salute

I don't think I'm more correct it's just a different way of looking at it. Either way it suggests that you want to know how much G you can pull in a sustained turn and still maintain speed for vertical maneuvering.

Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2011, 11:30:43 PM »
Since you hear the stall horn at various turn rates that seems unlikely. It's the stall horn and appropriate speed together that give your best sustained turn rate.

Clearly you still don't understand. 

The stall horn will begin to sound at different speeds and at different turn rates in different planes.  The stall horn doesn't sound at various turn rates in the same plane.  Either you're entering the stall or not and it's more speed than turn dependent.  It just happens the harder you turn the slower you go and the more likely you are to enter a stall.  What I'm saying is that when the stall horn just begins to sound in the plane you're in you're likely at your best sustained turn rate.  That's much different in a 190A-8 than it is in an A6M2.

Instantaneous turn rate is a whole different topic and generally happens well above stall speeds.
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2011, 12:48:24 AM »
The stall horn will begin to sound at different speeds and at different turn rates in different planes.  The stall horn doesn't sound at various turn rates in the same plane.  Either you're entering the stall or not and it's more speed than turn dependent.  It just happens the harder you turn the slower you go and the more likely you are to enter a stall.  What I'm saying is that when the stall horn just begins to sound in the plane you're in you're likely at your best sustained turn rate.  That's much different in a 190A-8 than it is in an A6M2.
Instantaneous turn rate is a whole different topic and generally happens well above stall speeds.

The stall buzzer actually does sound at different turn rates (and speeds) in the same plane.  All the stall horn is telling you is that you're near the lift limit, that's it.  It doesn't care what speed you're at, or your turn rate, or your altitude, or G, just the critical AoA.  If you're at the lift limit at 350mph you'll get a certain G which will give you a certain turn rate and radius.  That's the best instantaneous turn rate/radius at that altitude, loading and speed but you can't sustain it in a level turn due to insufficient power.  

If you hit the lift limit at 200mph your best instantaneous turn rate/radius will be different (lower rate, larger radius) than at 350mph due to less G available and, as 200mph will likely be above your Ps=0 line, you can't sustain that either.  Your rate/radius will continue to change until you decelerate to the intersection of the lift limit and Ps=0 line at which time you can sustain a level turn at the lift limit without either climbing or descending but at even lower G than in the previous examples.  This is the point where you get the aircraft's best sustained turn performance.  

Note that those very different parameters (speed, turn rates, and turn radius') occur while the stall buzzer is going.  You can also see that instantaneous and sustained turn rates aren't really different topics, they're the same thing just at different parts of the flight envelope.  The difference between "instantaneous" and "sustained" is simply a function of power available and logically you can see that if you're willing to trade away altitude you can improve your sustained turn performance for a short while (Terra firma being the limiter).  It's also obvious why a spiral climb reduces your sustained turn performance.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:08:59 AM by Mace2004 »
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Offline BaldEagl

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2011, 01:27:25 AM »
I've been clear the whole time.  I did fail to account for altitudes and things like that but my original comment was that your best turn rates occur at entry to the stall buzzer.  No more no less.  Sorry I'm not an aerodynamics wiz but your comments seem to confirm what I've been trying to say all along; if I want my best turn rate for the plane I'm in and the speed I'm going I want to just be entering the stall horn.

Anyway, sorry I ever posted to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 01:33:56 AM by BaldEagl »
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Offline Mace2004

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2011, 02:54:49 AM »
My comment was not intended as a slam on you BaldEagl.  I think you understand the concept but, as is not unusual on the boards, you (and several others) have a few mistakes mixed in.  Again, this isn't unusual, just trying to keep the record straight so to speak.  <S>
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Offline bozon

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2011, 03:14:11 AM »
Sustained turn rates are pure academic exercise that bears almost no relevance to actual dogfighting. Instantaneous turn performance and turn radii will almost always be the deciding factors when the pilots are allowed to do what it takes to win instead of following a rigid theoretical flight pattern. Yet people are obsessed with sustained turns for some reason - maybe it is the unrealistic and simple geometry of sustained turns that allows them to draw simple circle pictures, while maneuvers with varying turn radii, speed and a 3rd dimension are more difficult to imagine.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Degrees per second
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2011, 06:38:10 AM »
I've been clear the whole time.  I did fail to account for altitudes and things like that but my original comment was that your best turn rates occur at entry to the stall buzzer.  No more no less.  Sorry I'm not an aerodynamics wiz but your comments seem to confirm what I've been trying to say all along; if I want my best turn rate for the plane I'm in and the speed I'm going I want to just be entering the stall horn.

Anyway, sorry I ever posted to begin with.

Once you get below your best sustained turn speed, pulling to the horn will give you your best turn for your speed but it won't be a good turn. At that point you're better off not pulling to the horn and letting your speed build until you can at least get your best sustained turn rate. Pulling to the horn above your best sustained turn speed will often give you the tactical performance you want and is usually a good choice but it isn't your best turn rate.