To communicate, or not communicate?.....that is the question.....

[Gunthr]

I couldn't agree more on the observation that (if I may paraphrase) you can shoot yourself in the foot by not providing enough information about changes that are going to affect people.

An information vacuum causes anxiety and  forces people to speculate endlessly about what is going to happen. People WILL fill in the information blanks, and it will usually be negative.

I did notice that the furor died down immediately when the information was given by Pyro.  We all feel better now. Even if some may not completely satisfied, they can better deal with tangibles.

This is a unique kind of business that is sort of in partnership with the "community", and management has to balance the needs of the community for information with its needs to not tip its hand to the competition.  Its interesting.

Enjoyed the post    

------------------
   

http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm"" TARGET=_blank>332nd Flying Mongrels



[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Badger]

 

Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Badger, no offense, but when I see a post with more than 100 words in it, I simply skip it.

hehe...no offense ripsnort, but for you to get to 1581 posts on here, you would have to skip everything over 50 words, not 100.  

<Salute>

Regards,
Badger

[bloom25]

... or rather 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous questions.  

Ok, enough Shakespere...

Badger, as always you pose an interesting question.  Like all of your posts, this one has generated some excellent debate.  
I personally think HTC has done a better job than most companies of "keeping us in the loop."  Only rarely does a week go by that we don't get a new screenshot, a word from Pyro or HT, or a new magazine review.  This past week we have received a flood of information from Pyro about the new version.  There was also an interview and a review posted containing new screenshots and information.  We also were given a lot of information about the upcoming AH Convention.  What more could they possibly tell us right now?  (Besides what is the average daily Pizza and Wings consumption per staff member; or maybe what they had for lunch that day.     )  Also note that HT and Pyro have 400+ posts each.  That averages out to more than 1 post per day from each of them.  Don't forget that Pyro and HT often do Q&A sessions online.  (Pyro did one last night.     )  Not only that, but almost all of them fly daily in the arena WITH us!  (I shot down NATEDOG just the other night.     )

I can also say without a doubt that our ideas have been put to use by HTC many times since I've been here.  Here's a few things that I can recall that have been suggested and implemented:  
  Smaller icons, squad highlight, plane additions (Yak9, A6M5, Lancaster, P38L all come to mind), the basis for the new map (base 1 location and layout in particular), the upcoming reward system, less precise bombsights, b17 engine nacelle reworking, 109 cockpit reworking, minor p38 artwork fixes, the web page, FAQ file (they directly added a bunch of stuff I posted to it     ), troop drop sound (it was submitted to them by one of us), the ability to customize sounds (AKWabbit's sounds were also added to the downloads page), customizable gunsights (player submitted sight are even included in the AH program), upcoming sound and graphics enhancements, plane flight model revisions (205 & 109 come to mind), someone requested the film view be launched automatically when you try to open a film file and HT responded the next day saying that he will see what it takes to do it, various bug fixes (bouncing bombs in the bombbay, B17 rocket booster easter egg bug    , ALT-Tab lockup bug, WIN 2000 mouse support all come to mind here), vehicle hangar remote spawn pts, font size for text, plane performance charts, web links within the game, and much, much, much more.

In fact, everytime I fly AH I can see where our ideas have been included into it.  I've never played any other game out there that I could say the same about.

Badger I agree with you, good communication is essential to any company.  (Especially in the currently very crowded online sim market.)  IMO HTC has done an exceptional job to this point.  This game for me is like an "undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveler returns." (Meaning I'm an AH addict.   )

------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS



[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Fatty]

Damn, Lizard beat me.  I think I'm going to go eat 3 dozen hard-boiled eggs.

[Badger]

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
... or rather 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous questions.    

hehehe..and I always thought it was "outrageous fortunes"....  

As always, great content from another perspective bloom25...<salute>

Many truisms in there as well that I had overlooked.....thanks.

Edit add-on:  After reading again all of things you show them doing personally, it's a wonder they have time to code at all.  

Given all these communication duties, don't you think it might be a good idea to start off-loading and empowering some CM type people to handle some of these things?

Regards,
Badger



[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Wanker]

Wow, what a memory you have bloom25! <S>

I stand corrected. I didn't realize all of those features were generated from discussions on this BB.

[Nash]

"  hehehe..and I always thought it was "outrageous fortunes".... "

Thought it was just 'outrageous misfortune'.

[Pyro]

I have to disagree.  I don't see us being secretive about things.  We are reserved in what we say because we don't want to mislead and things can change many times before they're done.  We don't want to say something and then not come through.  But it is that dynamic development process that makes it possible to implement feedback and suggestions.  If we had everything planned out already, what would we need feedback for?

Occasionally, news will be come out from articles or reviews to give them extra meat.  That's a symbiotic relationship in that they get more eyes reading their articles which leads to us getting more coverage.

We want people's expectations to be realistic. HYPE(How You Please Everyone) is a viable marketing strategy when used smartly and with some restraint, but it's also dangerous.  The best games are always the ones that haven't been released yet.  It's easy to have an awesome game when it's not out.  Overhype it though, and even a good game can appear underwhelming and create an air of disappointment when it's released.  That is only made worse by delays in the release.  

I don't agree with setting up a group of players to act as intermediaries to us.  To me, that is just an unneeded bureauacracy which will cause resentment by creating a special class of players.  Everybody has an equal voice in this if they want to use it.  

As for using betas before a release, you are correct in that we're not interested in doing that.  The reason is because we feel the gains are overshadowed by the costs.  Fast development is part of what we're selling.  If we mess up, we'll fix it fast, but in the end this saves us a lot of time and makes the game progress much faster.



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Citabria]

No one has even ever come close to HTC's interaction with the players!

this is what makes Aces High such an endearing product. you see everyone who has contributed in any way to helping develop the sim in a great or small way feels that they are in a simbian existance with HTC working together for mutual advantage of a better flight sim  

seems like almost everyone here wants to see HTC not just succeed, but create the greatest flight sim there ever was. Although some of the ideas suggested are dumb they all mean well and almost always submitted with admiration because HTC actually listens to the really good ideas and implements them for all to enjoy  

[bloom25]

I was wrong in my post. Pyro and HT don't have 400 posts each.  Pyro has 950+ and HT has 600.    (Note that Superfly, Natedog, and Ronni also actively post to the board as well.)

Given the above figure, HT and Pyro alone average just over 4 posts per day!  

 

------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 05-19-2000).]

[Badger]

Hi Pyro...

I appreciate the response, since you must be tight for time getting ready to run off and lose your life savings in Vegas?  

I hear clearly what you're saying, but, with all due respect, I guess we will continue to disagree on two points.

First, empowerment and intelligent use of a FREE source of willing labor for a small company should never be viewed as "unneeded bureaucracy".  Working hard long hours trying to do everything by yourself is a marvelous quality and work ethic, but working smart and expanding one's influence over a bigger picture creates true dynamic and rapid growth.  The former is usually a symptom that results in often unacceptably slow revenue growth, until someone figures out how to make 2+2=5, not 3.  Bloom25 counted 950 posts for Pyro and 600 for Hitech, an incredible time commitment for which I compliment you both.  In view of that data alone, starting to just consider a division of labor and efforts doesn't seem to me to be "creating a special class of players", but rather increasing productivity.

Second, with regards to betas, I would have the same comment about the effective use of FREE external resources to vet releases.  Internal testing alone simply bogs down any product evolution eventually, as it gets larger over time with more features and functions.  A reverse dragging effect on your original "Fast development is part of what we're selling" philosophy, actually starts to take root as people like yourself and Hitech waste needed real development and marketing time, doing something as mundane as play testing.  Again, a symptom that will ultimately show up in the lethargic revenue numbers over time.

I simply don't get it, but I'm just a country boy viewing a competitive door of opportunity, possibly closing on someone's foot.  The beauty of this discussion is that one of us is right and the other is wrong.  The passage of time will ultimately demonstrate which of our diametrically opposed approaches to this type of Internet marketing and on-line development was correct.  So, after you've made your first million and meet me at CON 2001 driving a BMW Z3 with a Vegas show girl on each arm, then I guess I'll have to eat crow and buy you dinner at the best place in town.  I salute you for your conviction.

I haven't anything else constructive I can add to this thread, so I'll stop my participation at this point.

It has been an interesting and enlightening thread for me personally about many things, some of which effects matters not even related to HTC.  I try to make a habit of learning something new every day and today was no exception.  Thanks to everyone for their feedback.  I hope someone archives this topic for posterity, so we can all dig it out down the road in about 8-12 months and have a good laugh re-reading its content.

Regards,
Badger

[AKDejaVu]

Badger,

I've deleted a serious rant aimed at you because I don't feel your posts merrit anything that harsh.  It was silly to even type it out so I apologize for it.

I must say that I get the impression that you really like to read your own posts and pat yourself on the back.  They are written with a skill that few (if any) in this forum could match.  Unfortunately, after reading each one, I always shrug and think "what a load of bs".

You say alot without saying much.  You comment on things as if you have an "intimate" knowledge when you do not.  You speak as if you are the spokesperson for the customers when you are not.  These things grate on me more and more with every post of this style.

I understand your concerns with any of these companies fitting into what you consider to be a proffitable buisness model.  I understand the theory that wanting a company to be more successfull means it will be providing a quality product to its users for a longer period of time.  These are things you seem to be well versed in judging by your posts here and on AGW.

I was around when Pyro and HT began avoiding the news groups (yep.. forums weren't quite the thing yet). I've heard you were too.  They learned what happened when this crowd was fed information that was changed at a later date... or given a date that wasn't met... or sided with someone in an arguement.  It would get ugly quick.

The HTC crew has acted in what I'd consider to be a perfect blend of professionalism and communal spirit.  It is well in line with what they have stated to be their objective in developing this game.  I'm not sure that their view of where the direction the company should take meshes with yours.  Seems to be a "K.I.S.S." philosophy they are working with.  I highly respect that.

As for your feelings towards any group of volunteers or anyone acting in any kind of "committee".... it smacks of elitism.  It is one of the reasons I left another sim.  Give everyone equal say.  Listen to everyone.  Filters don't only screen bad things.. they sometimes sceen good things.

So.. after what is a long-winded post(For me)... I must emphasize that this isn't a personal attack.  I don't know you from the guy down the block.  I just thought the time had come to finally post a follow up to one of them.

AKDejaVu

[Badger]

 

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
.. I must emphasize that this isn't a personal attack.  I don't know you from the guy down the block.  I just thought the time had come to finally post a follow up to one of them.

AKDejaVu

Thanks for the candor and feedback AKDejaVu.

I never took your post as any form of a personal attack.

I appreciate your honesty and I regret that you feel my contributions are "a load of bs".  It is unfortunate we aren't sitting face to face and talking about this stuff, as I hope I would not come across as shallow, or make some feel as threatened.  I'm not trying to change the world order, simply bring some 30+ years of successful business development experience to the table.  To most, it is seen as an exercise in solving game problems, to me I see it as an exercise in solving business problems.  Time will tell.

In hindsight, your right, I probably should go with the consensus flow on here and be less vocal.  I've just never been that good with pep rallies.  

It is always a thin line between being viewed either as one who constructively tries to improve something, or being viewed as one who preaches heresy, especially without home field advantage.  

As I said to Vermillion in another thread using the analogy of the alcoholic, I think I get too involved.

My apologies and I will cease proactive posting on any provocative subjects, but I still want a LIMITED ICON HA......hehehe.....  

<Salute>

Regards,
Badger

[SnakeEyes]

I don't think Pyro is being particularly secretive about things from what I've observed here.  In fact, I would say that he provides 200-300% more data than he did back with ICI/IMOL.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Pyro]

First, empowerment and intelligent use of a FREE source of willing labor for a small company should never be viewed as "unneeded bureaucracy".
------------------------------------

I don't know about free.  There is a price whether obvious or hidden.  Using player resources to help is not foreign to us.  We have a training staff, we'll have an events staff, and we'll have interested users building terrains with the editor.  However, that doesn't mean it's worth always going that route.  We have to look at whether it'll be worth it or not.  The reason I call it an unneeded bureaucracy is because is because I think it inhibits rather than facilitates things.  People enjoy knowing that they can voice their opinion and it means something and is heard directly to the top, not through some chain of filters to determine what is important and what isn't.  It really doesn't matter whether it creates elitism or not, it creates a feeling of elitism among other players which is not a good thing.  Everybody wants to feel like they're subscription is worth the same as the next guy's.

On using closed groups to beta test, again that is not something we're foreign to.  We've done it before and fully understand the cost, value, and implications.  As of now, it would cost us much more than we would gain. That's not to say that that can't change over time as things change.  

We are unorthodox in our development process.  We don't have meetings, we don't email memos to each other across the office, we don't draft up schedules.  We do everything that would make a traditional manager cringe.  The reason why we do that is simple, it's efficient for us.  It wouldn't be efficient in many places, but here it works because we all know our jobs and what we need to do.  

I'll not need to make a million at this to succeed, nor do I expect to.  And success or failure will probably prove nothing.  Very few things are black and white.  Successful people don't do everything right and people who fail don't do everything wrong.  

What I think much of this boils down to is that we don't want to do everything ourselves, in fact we want to offload a bunch of stuff and will do that in time.  But right now, we're just in the start-up stage so we're very conscience of what is necessary vs what is luxury vs what is waste.  



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.