Author Topic: When Is It Alright to HO?  (Read 8353 times)

Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2011, 11:21:41 AM »
I'm with MtnMan on this.  The only reason I do not HO is because I simply have no reason to put myself in harms way when I know I can outmaneuver my opponent.  It has nothing to do with honor or toon fighting ethics.  If I find myself nose to nose with a bad guy by my mistake, I will either shoot him in the face and hope he does not shoot me back or I will try to make a list ditch avoidance of his shot, in which I usually take damage.  Of course, this doesn't happen very often.  It's as simple as that really.  

Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #211 on: September 10, 2011, 11:34:06 AM »
Where?

Again, you seem to think there's a difference between how you fight and I fight?  

I don't see it, form your description of how you fight.

How is the way you play the game different from mine?

Are you actually reading my posts?

HERE, you say....

"But, if you fly/merge poorly and present me with a shot, well, I may pass on it, but not without a twinge of guilt, and a disinterest in the rest of the fight.  For me, that fight is already over, and you lost...  Who cares about the fight to follow?  You blew it on the merge."

which means you "may not" and most likely 'will not" as in your belief it cheapens the fight by ignoring a shot to end it. ....or am I reading that wrong?

Fair enough...  I was in the same "anti-HO" phase you're in now too.  I know how hard it can be to get past it.

You honestly don't see how this exactly describes the "non-HO-allowed" "fight" as well?  This realization is what ultimately lead me to consider "non-ho-allowed" fights invalid (or at least sub-par).  It did take me quite a while (more than a year?).

It didn't lead me to begin HOing, of course, but it made me see the value of it as a threat.

Switch "removing" with "allowing" on your last sentence, and it becomes more accurate.


No I can't. By allowing the HO and "most" people using it as their main move, it's like telling me the first 10 moves your going to make when we play a game of chess. I'm already ahead and feel like I cheated. Without the HO it will force players to try AND use other move thereby putting me in a position to have to guess more about what I should do to get the upper hand in the fight. With the HO enabled I already start almost every fight with the upper hand.

I'm with MtnMan on this.  The only reason I do not HO is because I simply have no reason to put myself in harms way when I know I can outmaneuver my opponent.  It has nothing to do with honor or toon fighting ethics.  If I find myself nose to nose with a bad guy by my mistake, I will either shoot him in the face and hope he does not shoot me back or I will try to make a list ditch avoidance of his shot, in which I usually take damage.  Of course, this doesn't happen very often.  It's as simple as that really. 

Flying nose to nose by another enemy aircraft holding guns and waving is an artificial situation and is not combat.

I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.

Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #212 on: September 10, 2011, 11:44:26 AM »
I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.

What's the problem though Fugitive?  Honestly, I die to a HO maybe twice a tour and kill the HO'er about five hundred times a tour.  It's not a problem for me, and if it is for you, then your tactics are not sound.

Or is the problem in the lack of fight?  But when has the average player been any better than a HO'ing casual player just trying to get a couple kills in a WW2 airplane?

The main arena is about combat, the war, and getting kills or be killed.  It's not about the fight.  A small minority tries to make it about the fight but it never will be.  It would be best to meet up with players with similar interests in the DA or a Custom arena and set ground rules because it will NEVER apply to the MA.

Offline ink

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #213 on: September 10, 2011, 11:53:00 AM »
Fugi   I am more inclined to think that they go for the HO because they just don't understand "how" to fight.....obviously not every one that only HO's, but for the most part I think it definitely comes down to the fact they just don't understand ACM

also saddling someone is all fine and dandy but in the MA environment (with its massive hourds) its just not practical, long before you saddle them they will have friendlies all over your butt wanted or not, like you I love a good fight, but I try to kill as fast as I can, so I can be ready for the next line of red guys that I know are right around the corner so to speak......

instead of trying to saddle them go for the angles...attack the biggest red dar you can find, go for angles and have an absolute blast in the game again :salute

I do every time I fly....now if they would just get rid of the 12 hour rule so those that love to fight can go where the fight is, the game would be back to being perfect well as close to perfect as can be.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2011, 12:10:05 PM »
What's the problem though Fugitive?  Honestly, I die to a HO maybe twice a tour and kill the HO'er about five hundred times a tour.  It's not a problem for me, and if it is for you, then your tactics are not sound.

Or is the problem in the lack of fight?  But when has the average player been any better than a HO'ing casual player just trying to get a couple kills in a WW2 airplane?

BINGO !!!

Quote

The main arena is about combat, the war, and getting kills or be killed.  It's not about the fight.  A small minority tries to make it about the fight but it never will be.  It would be best to meet up with players with similar interests in the DA or a Custom arena and set ground rules because it will NEVER apply to the MA.


ahhhh but it use to. In the old days EVERYBODY fought. Some not as well as others, but everyone tried. Todays players make one pass and haul a@@, or HO until they get in a lucky shot, or lose their "E" and then run away stick stirring all the way to ack if they came.

Lets put it this way, I'm all for ANYTHING that will force players to improve their fighting skills. I'd rather see 5 guys be able to hit 90% of the time with their bomb drops to take a town than see 30 guys hit 5% of the time to do the same thing. I'd rather see two guys break off a cap/vulch to protect a goon inbound than see 10 goons inbound. I'd rather see a cap of fighters intercept inbound defenders instead of the inbound defend vulch the vulchers.

Today fights are fewer and farther between because the players are more interested in HOing through a fight, aurgering to bomb, or overwhelming a force with huge but skilless numbers. In the old days I would log on every night even if it was only for half an hour because I KNEW I'd find a quick fight or two. Now I log on only on a weekend and spend most of my time chasing fights. HOin kills those few chances there are for fights. Personally something that evolves from "avoid the HO, yo-yo onto his tail, chase him down and cut his wing off" can't really be called a fight.

Fugi   I am more inclined to think that they go for the HO because they just don't understand "how" to fight.....obviously not every one that only HO's, but for the most part I think it definitely comes down to the fact they just don't understand ACM

also saddling someone is all fine and dandy but in the MA environment (with its massive hourds) its just not practical, long before you saddle them they will have friendlies all over your butt wanted or not, like you I love a good fight, but I try to kill as fast as I can, so I can be ready for the next line of red guys that I know are right around the corner so to speak......

instead of trying to saddle them go for the angles...attack the biggest red dar you can find, go for angles and have an absolute blast in the game again :salute

I do every time I fly....now if they would just get rid of the 12 hour rule so those that love to fight can go where the fight is, the game would be back to being perfect well as close to perfect as can be.

I agree Ink, and I do still have fun...other wise I wouldn't be here  :aok Can you imagine tho if even half the players playing now learned some ACMs and even became average? How would the fights be then?  :D

Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2011, 12:13:46 PM »
ahhhh but it use to. In the old days EVERYBODY fought. Some not as well as others, but everyone tried. Todays players make one pass and haul a@@, or HO until they get in a lucky shot, or lose their "E" and then run away stick stirring all the way to ack if they came.

I don't believe this in the least.  It was just your perception that everyone fought.

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2011, 12:19:36 PM »
I don't believe this in the least.  It was just your perception that everyone fought.

believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2011, 12:20:04 PM »
HERE, you say....

"But, if you fly/merge poorly and present me with a shot, well, I may pass on it, but not without a twinge of guilt, and a disinterest in the rest of the fight.  For me, that fight is already over, and you lost...  Who cares about the fight to follow?  You blew it on the merge." which means you "may not" and most likely 'will not" as in your belief it cheapens the fight by ignoring a shot to end it. ....or am I reading that wrong?

Ah, OK, my fault for not being clear enough.  I can see how that could be misunderstood.  

By "may" I mean I would pass on the shot, but that by passing on it I may give you the wrong impression on how I feel about it (i.e. you may think that I see your merge as appropriate/legitimate/etc...).  I wouldn't take the shot simply because it isn't/wasn't in my "plan" (I never enter a fight expecting that my opponent will make it so easy to beat him, although I always suspect he'll be looking for a quick way to beat me).

"I may pass on it" might be better replaced with some version of "luckily for you, I'll pass on the shot"?

So, for clarity, I would pass on taking that shot 100% of the time.  But, I'd feel guilty about it because it would allow you to think that you were fighting in an effective manner, or that our "fight" (boy, I hate using that word in a non-ho-allowed description) was at all realistic or "honest".

By passing on that shot, I'd consider myself "guilty by association" to reducing the overall quality of fights in the game.  I'd pass on it (and do so gobs and gobs and gobs of times), but feel I was in the wrong for doing so.  I'd consider it cheating, or more accurately maybe, allowing my opponent to cheat on me without my saying anything about it.  All legitimacy to the fight will be gone for me by that point (the merge).

No I can't. By allowing the HO and "most" people using it as their main move, it's like telling me the first 10 moves your going to make when we play a game of chess. I'm already ahead and feel like I cheated. Without the HO it will force players to try AND use other move thereby putting me in a position to have to guess more about what I should do to get the upper hand in the fight. With the HO enabled I already start almost every fight with the upper hand.

I agree that putting yourself in harms way is stupid, however that doesn't seem to apply to most players these days. A vast majority of players will take that chance, push the odds, roll those dice just for the kill and it is their main,number one, favorite move. In most cases I'm sure they will even admit it is a poor percentage move if you ask them, but the need for the "kill" out ways the need to avoid the HO for them. Better cartoon pilot like you and mtnman know how to avoid the HO and exploit those that use it. I just think it has become a crutch for many new players as it does work to get kills, so why bother to learn any other moves.

I don't see evidence of the prevalence of this when I play.  Sure, some guys go for it.  Some don't know any better, some don't care, etc...  The best way to teach them there's a better option is to show them it doesn't/shouldn't work that well.  If it works, why wouldn't they continue using it?  If players are dragging the "non-ho" mentality into the game, they're making the HO more effective (and therefore probably increasing its prevalence) than it should be, simply because they're not defending against it adequately.

As a personal example of that...  I had (occasionally) people train with me where (when I'd start out with a basic merge to appraise their skill) they'd ask "guns cold on the merge?".  I'd always respond with "What??!!  Heck no! If you feel like shooting at me, or think you can hit me, feel free!".  Why would I do that?  Simple...  I knew that they could try to HO me as often as they wanted, and there was no way in heck they'd come away from our session feeling like that was going to be an effective option when it came to fighting a skilled pilot.  I had guys try it on me, repeatedly, and of course it didn't work.  The beauty of it is that they proved to themselves that it didn't work, because they tried it, and it didn't work.  Then I showed them some tactics that do work.  The ones that didn't try it were still left with the knowledge that they could try for it if they desired, but that I wasn't fazed by it and was very confident that it wasn't a tactic that would work on me...

Had I told them to go with a "cold merge" they'd have been left thinking that there was a reason I'd asked for no-ho's...  Why could that be?  Was an HO-pass a chink in MtnMan's armor?  One that could be exploited if they didn't realize quick success with the more complex methods I taught?  And if it works on MtnMan, will it work as well on others?  Is it the easy answer to winning in the MA?

In that light, by "allowing" it, I was dissuading them from using it, while, had I disallowed it, I might have encouraged its use (later).  Beyond that, had I taught them guns-cold merges I'd have been doing them a disservice when it comes to MA-fights.  If I'm going to teach them, I want to do it right, rather than show them a gimmick or method that will only work under certain circumstances.  I'd have made them more susceptible to being HO'ed in the MA, and contributed to the "HOing is effective" theory.

To the "first 10 moves" comment I'd say the same thing about the non-HO-allowed merge...  Dive to the deck, pass side-by-side, and pull up...  The non-HO merge is one of the most "scripted" fights possible.
MtnMan

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #218 on: September 10, 2011, 12:35:47 PM »
Where does punching fit into basketball?

In AH, the fighters are supposed to shoot at each other....

To compare a basketball game AH, we'd have to liken HOing to scoring with a lay-up.  Are lay-ups unsportsmanlike?  Would basketball be a better sport if only shots beyond a certain distance were allowed (or considered good conduct)?


The analogy was not exact.  The point of it was that those who criticize the HO aren't the ones who are initiating the debate.  The people who take that shot are.

- oldman

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #219 on: September 10, 2011, 12:50:46 PM »

The analogy was not exact.  The point of it was that those who criticize the HO aren't the ones who are initiating the debate.  The people who take that shot are.

- oldman

How so?

Was my analogy close enough?  We're talking about a very basic "legal" component of each game after all (shooting an easy basket/going for a low-complexity shot in AH). 

Punching in basketball is an illegal tactic, so the ref should be involved.  Shooting an opponent in AH is not illegal, so why would shooting an opponent in AH initiate a debate?
MtnMan

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #220 on: September 10, 2011, 02:26:06 PM »
Punching in basketball is an illegal tactic, so the ref should be involved.  Shooting an opponent in AH is not illegal, so why would shooting an opponent in AH initiate a debate?


Thank you.  You have now brought us full circle.  Whether legal or illegal, reasonable people differ on whether the HO is sportsmanlike conduct.  Thus the HO begets the expressed irritation.

- oldman

Offline mtnman

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #221 on: September 10, 2011, 02:47:02 PM »

Thank you.  You have now brought us full circle.  Whether legal or illegal, reasonable people differ on whether the HO is sportsmanlike conduct.  Thus the HO begets the expressed irritation.

- oldman

Well, I guess we'll just need to continue disagreeing then...

Unless a ref shows up?
MtnMan

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Offline Rich52

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #222 on: September 10, 2011, 03:38:42 PM »
I'd rather avoid them. Most of all in 1 on 1s. Thats one of the good things Ive found in the WW1 arena, the few times Ive ever noticed anyone in there, its that HO'ing is generally avoided. At least in the handful of fights Ive been in there.

HO'ing bombers is certainly a valid tactic.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #223 on: September 10, 2011, 11:17:36 PM »
Well, I guess we'll just need to continue disagreeing then...

Heh.  Diggit.

- oldman

Offline grizz441

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Re: When Is It Alright to HO?
« Reply #224 on: September 11, 2011, 12:31:31 AM »
believe what you will. I wish I had some of wldthings films. I remember fighting almost ALL the time. Very rare was it a chase. If you engaged with someone they fought back. I think I would remember the frustration that builds when you spend half your night looking for or chasing down a target, like I do now with todays play.

I find fights all the time in the MA.  We must be playing in parallel toon universes.