Author Topic: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s  (Read 2247 times)

Offline drgondog

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2011, 07:03:13 AM »
Remember the Luftwaffe aces shot down 38s faster then Lockheed could build them.  Wasn't that Heinrich Bartels who shot down 7 of the 19 38s that went down over Greece on November 15th and 17th of 43?   ;)

I do believe that the pilot I quoted was referring to down low in the 38 in reference to the 51 speed.  As he'd flown 51Ds and 38s with the 364th, he was referring to his own experience in them.

The 38 was believed easy meat by LW pilots that encountered them in the ETO at high altitude in 1943/early 1944 but, for example Steinhoff, who fought them in MTO expressed a serious counter opinion.  Nobody thought a P-38 was easy meat from late J model through L.  The dive flaps and boosted ailerons made it a very agile fighter in both vertical and horizontal.
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Offline pervert

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2011, 09:19:17 AM »
I have never heard of anything with boosted control surfaces, other than the P-38, in WWII.  I wouldn't be shocked if a bomber like the B-29 had them as I don't read as much about bombers, but I would have to see primary source documentation supporting the claim for a fighter.

Still hunting down the page I was lookingn at about the 190 I do think it was article about a crashed FW that had been found in Russia or something that mentioned it?? Grrr the only thing I can find is forum posts were some say it is electrically boosted and others say it uses control rods?


Interestingly you can add the Tempest to the list of planes that boosted ailerons says here they used a spring.

"The ailerons were fitted with spring loaded tabs which lightened the aerodynamic loads, making them easier for the pilot to use and dramatically improving the roll rate above 250 mph (402 km/h)"

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Tempest

This on the 190 is interesting and might explain its excellant high speed handling in game...

"Instead of the customary cables and pulleys used on most aircraft, which tended to stretch, resulting in 'give' and 'play' that made the controls less crisp and responsive, the design team used rigid pushrods to actuate the control surfaces. Another innovation was making the controls as light as possible. The maximum resistance of the ailerons was limited to eight pounds, as the average man's wrist could not exert a greater force."

But how did they go about this??

Offline Noir

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2011, 05:04:28 PM »
illusions...the fastest rolling 190's are the A series :P
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Offline M0nkey_Man

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 05:11:11 PM »
Long Live the 38! :lol
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2011, 02:09:45 PM »
hmmm, rolling faster than a 190...

The real question is did anyone vomit?
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Offline mbailey

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2011, 03:08:16 PM »
hmmm, rolling faster than a 190...

The real question is did anyone vomit?


Not sure about vomit, but I bet the 190 pilot lost some bodily fluids watching the 38 roll  :D
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Offline pervert

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2011, 03:49:11 PM »
Anyone come up with anything on the 8 pounds of stick pressure, or how that would be accomplished? I'd assume it would have something to do with how the stick was set up regards leverage??

Offline colmbo

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2011, 04:09:25 PM »
Anyone come up with anything on the 8 pounds of stick pressure, or how that would be accomplished? I'd assume it would have something to do with how the stick was set up regards leverage??

That 8 pounds is probably "system drag" and is eliminated by well engineered control systems.  Push/pull rods, bearings where needed, etc.  With aerodynamic loading you'll need more than 8 pounds even on a Cessna.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2011, 05:21:25 PM »
Not sure about vomit, but I bet the 190 pilot lost some bodily fluids watching the 38 roll  :D
Doesn't an F-16 roll about three times as fast as an Fw190?
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Offline mbailey

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2011, 06:33:08 PM »
Yes, no, maybe, Dont understand your point.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2011, 10:10:22 AM »
My regards,

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Offline Hopper

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2011, 02:08:15 PM »
He could have been a better more experienced pilot and out flew the 190 pilot.
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Offline X2Lee

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2011, 09:52:48 AM »
Nowhere in this did he state he rolled with the 190.
you need to re read it in context...

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2011, 01:12:30 PM »
you need to re read it in context...

well hello Stranger


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Offline Koski

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Re: Interesting comment from a wartime 38 driver about outrolling190s
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2011, 08:58:29 AM »
The 38 was believed easy meat by LW pilots that encountered them in the ETO at high altitude in 1943/early 1944 but, for example Steinhoff, who fought them in MTO expressed a serious counter opinion.  Nobody thought a P-38 was easy meat from late J model through L.  The dive flaps and boosted ailerons made it a very agile fighter in both vertical and horizontal.

Actually the P-38 wasn't "easy meat" for LW, even in late 1943/ early 1944. Many LW aces considered the fork-tailed devil a serious adversary. High casualty rate for the P-38H and early J was mostly due to the unreliable Allison engines which were really not suitable for the ETO climate and high altitude. Many P-38s fell victim to failed Allison engines and thus some were picked off flying on one engine by the LW. Just read the 20th and 55th FG group histories to find out more about this.

Also one should consider that the LW core pilot quality hadnt deteriorated by late 1943 (atleast not substantially) as it had when the Mustang equipped 8th AAF started to really amass victories on the rookies of Luftwaffe. Had a more reliable version of the P-38 been available in numbers from summer 1944 to the end war, im pretty sure it would've racked up some serious number of victories on the LW. Also the few units that did use the P-38 in ETO up to fall 1944 were mostly ordered to air-to-ground missions and loco busting in generally, a hazardous job with not much of chances to rack up air-to-air victories and this obviously affected the kill ratios of such units in a bad way.
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