Author Topic: What would happen, if  (Read 1024 times)

Offline clerick

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2011, 09:23:11 PM »
Ignoring every factor, wouldn't it climb the same distance it fell? Like the ramp/marble experiment... two ramps same height one going down other going up... drop the marble down one and it'll stop at the same height on the other ramp it was released, if that makes any sense.

IF you ignore every physical force acting on the can, then yes.

Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2011, 09:27:44 PM »
Terminal velocity was what I was overlooking.
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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2011, 09:28:52 PM »
He would probably never get it. Ignoring temperatures etc. the can would accelerate towards the center of the Earth, gaining speed until it hits terminal velocity. Once it passes the center it would start being pulled back towards the center.  Think of it as a pendulum, starting at one height but never quite making it back to that same height as is swings back and forth until it eventually comes to rest at the center of the Earth.


If the air were evacuated, there would be no "terminal velocity" as long as gravity is pulling it towards the center of the earth, unless there is another force acting on it such as friction with the walls of the hole.  It would continuously accellerate (or decelerate, which is the same thing) any time it was not exactly at the gravitational center of mass of the earth.  On the way "down" it would accelerate continuously until it passes the center point, at which it would begin to decelerate (accelerate in the opposite direction) until it came to a halt (in a perfect system it would rise to the exact height as it was dropped from), at which point it would start back down the other way.

What we're really quibbling about are what factors prevent it from being a perfect system.  If it were a perfect hole evacuated to a perfect vacuum and the can fell with no friction from the walls or other factors causing it to lose energy, it would cycle back and forth forever.  But no system is perfect, and even a miniscule amount of wobble in the earth's rotation and the precession of the earth as it zings around the sun would cause the can to press up against the wall of the hole just a tiny bit.  That factor alone would be enough to gradually transfer the can's energy into heat, even if the rest of the system were "perfect" with no friction or other sources of energy loss.

Oh yea, don't forget those other sources of loss.  If the can is metal and passes through rocks with different magnetic or electrical properties, magnetic flux forces will be generated which will again transfer energy to heat.

So, we're quibbling about sources of energy loss, because although in a perfect system it would oscillate forever, the system simply cannot be perfect if for no other reason than the earth is tipped a bit on its axis as it rotates around the sun, and that would cause the wall to have to exert some force on the side of the can to keep it going up and down the hole.  And that's just one source of energy transfer/loss.

Then again, if you build the can right, some of the energy lost to heat could be used for propulsion.  Having one end of the can a better radiant surface, for example, would create a miniscule amount of thrust as the heat created by the friction was radiated from the can.  For that matter, you could use energy transfer from the hole to the can to actually ADD energy to the system, so the can would actually oscillate farther and farther each time through.  If the walls of the hole transferred heat energy to the can, and the can was designed so that the radiated energy was always directed in the direction that the can was travelling, then the can would accelerate faster than the acceleration caused by gravity.  That additional acceleration could be calibrated to exactly counteract parasitic losses due to can-hole friction, earth wobble, losses due to magnetic flux, etc.

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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2011, 09:31:05 PM »
Ignoring every factor, wouldn't it climb the same distance it fell? Like the ramp/marble experiment... two ramps same height one going down other going up... drop the marble down one and it'll stop at the same height on the other ramp it was released, if that makes any sense.

No.  Terminal velocity comes into play because of the distance involved.  Your marble experiment doesn't work when the distances become greater then the distance required for the marble to reach terminal velocity.

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Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 09:31:17 PM »
In a vacuum, If you dropped it 2 feet above the hole, it should arrive 2 feet above the hole?
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Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 09:32:17 PM »
Is there a pressure were terminal velocity = 2 mph's?
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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 09:35:10 PM »
Terminal velocity was what I was overlooking.


There is no terminal velocity in a vacuum, unless there is another force acting on the object.  The whole concept of terminal velocity simply describes the point where the force of gravity is exactly balanced by some other retarding force (usually drag from movement through air).  Remove the air, and you have no drag, hence no terminal velocity.

There are other possible sources of external force however, so we need to either talk about which forces will be included, or assume that every other force other than gravity is zero.

Even in space in "hard" vacuum, especially in the vicinity of a solar system, there will always be other forces.  The solar wind has enough force to create a "terminal velocity", or even be used for propulsion.  The voyager spacecraft had weird acceleration profiles that caused people to suspect all sorts of explanations, until they realized that the simple heat from the power supply (nuclear) was enough to give the spacecraft a slight acceleration.  We're talking about less heat than a warm frying pan, but over many years that adds up to a noticeable delta-V.
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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2011, 09:37:58 PM »
No.  Terminal velocity comes into play because of the distance involved.  Your marble experiment doesn't work when the distances become greater then the distance required for the marble to reach terminal velocity.

You have to assume that the hole has no air in it, because at the pressures in the center of the earth, air would be compressed back into a liquid and the can would splash down and stop well before it got to the center.  No air = no "terminal velocity", unless you postulate some other force that increases as velocity increases.  Magnetic flux as a metal can passes through layers of dirt with slightly different magnetic fields, could be one such source of an external force that could retard movement.  But now we're quibbling about what forces we keep while throwing all the rest out.
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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2011, 09:38:45 PM »
In a vacuum, If you dropped it 2 feet above the hole, it should arrive 2 feet above the hole?

"Yes", minus energy sapped from other sources of loss/transfer.
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Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2011, 09:41:52 PM »
Sorry, I said this wrong....what is the pressure at terminal velocity = 2 mph's
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Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 09:44:19 PM »
You have to assume that the hole has no air in it, because at the pressures in the center of the earth, air would be compressed back into a liquid and the can would splash down and stop well before it got to the center.  No air = no "terminal velocity", unless you postulate some other force that increases as velocity increases.  Magnetic flux as a metal can passes through layers of dirt with slightly different magnetic fields, could be one such source of an external force that could retard movement.  But now we're quibbling about what forces we keep while throwing all the rest out.

Some piraticals can just pass right through Earth with no effort.
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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 09:44:55 PM »
Is there a pressure were terminal velocity = 2 mph's?


Drop a rock in a swimming pool, to answer that question.

Air is simply gaseous oxygen, nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, and other trace gases.  Water is simply liquid Oxygen and Hydrogen.  "air" happens to be gaseous at sea level, while water happens to be liquid at sea level.  Reduce the pressure and water turns into a gas.  Increase the pressure and air turns into a liquid.  Increase the pressure too much and, if I recall my chemistry and physics lessons correctly, that liquid will take on most of the characteristics we associate with metals.

At the center of the earth, the pressure is high enough that air would be a liquid, leading to the same sort of terminal velocity you'd see from dropping a rock into a pool of water.

You could increase the air pressure to just below the pressure required to liquify it, and the terminal velocity would also drop because the air would be a lot more dense (more molecules to run into).  At that point you need math to figure it out because the exact composition of the "air" and the density/mass/shape of the dropped object would become really important.  For example, a "can" flattened out until it is as thin as tinfoil, dropped through regular sea-level air, has a pretty darn low terminal velocity.  So shape and density of the object and the components in the "air" become really important if you want to target a specific terminal velocity for any given object or medium through which it is passing.

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Offline eagl

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2011, 09:46:15 PM »
Some piraticals can just pass right through Earth with no effort.

They're just really small and moving really fast.  They're still getting acted on by the earth though...  Even the earth's magnetic field should divert the particles by just a tiny bit.
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Offline Rash

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2011, 10:06:51 PM »
That bothers me.
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Offline megadud

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Re: What would happen, if
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2011, 11:11:07 PM »
i would dive in after it and drink it before it got to him