FW-190D9 vs Spitfire MK XVI roll rates

[Stoney]

One of the reasons that contributed to the Spits higher Critical Mach number was that its wing airfoil thickness was thinner than most of its peers.  IIRC, it had a 12.5% root chord and 9% tip chord, compared to a 15% root chord on almost all other fighter aircraft in the war.

[skorpion]

The Spit Vb was basically the same airframe as the Spitfire I and II.  The B Wing was also found on some versions of the I and II.  The Spitfire Vc was a more strengthened airframe and had the redesigned universal wing.  The Spitfire IX/XVI and first 50 of the XII were built on the Vc airframe.  The VIII had a updated airframe with the retractable tail wheel.  The last 50 Spit XII were built on that airframe.  All XII had the pointed wider chord rudder as did all the XVIs.  Many IXs did as well.  The majority of the VII and VIII had this wider taller rudder too.

The Spitfire XIV was built on the VIII airframe with a redesigned tail to take on more of the torque. 

In terms of diving, the thin wing of the Spitfire was the biggest factor.  Testing was done at Farnborough with a Spitfire XI which had none of the guns or bumps for cannons etc.  It reached the highest speed in a dive for a prop bird.

In terms of roll rate, the clipping of the Spitfire wing made a big improvement.  This could be done to any of the Spit wings though as you could find clipped Vbs, Vc, IX, VIII, all XII and many XIVs in particular post war.

The Spit XVI used a Merlin rated for better performance down low so you wouldn't find it at 30K.  The clipped wing was also meant to help down low, another reason it wouldn't be up high 

ok, i understood all of that until you got to the merlin engine part. it was designed for down low fights, ok got that down(heh no pun intended). but what about a griffon engine? werent those supposed to help up higher or is my WW2 engine history off? as for the clipped wings, i didnt know that they actually helped with the roll rates. that really got me intrested, thanks for posting. 

[IrishOne]

D-9 should accelerate faster in a dive, but maximum controllable speed in the Spitfire may be faster. 

the D-9 maintains controllability at 600mph, something (please correct me if i'm wrong here) none of the spitfires can do.

[Karnak]

the D-9 maintains controllability at 600mph, something (please correct me if i'm wrong here) none of the spitfires can do.

What I meant was that the Spitfire has a higher compression speed.  Aileron control will last longer for the Fw190 due to stick forces, wing warping and aileron reversal on the Spitfire.  Elevator control should last longer for the Spitfire.

[Karnak]

ok, i understood all of that until you got to the merlin engine part. it was designed for down low fights, ok got that down(heh no pun intended). but what about a griffon engine? werent those supposed to help up higher or is my WW2 engine history off? as for the clipped wings, i didnt know that they actually helped with the roll rates. that really got me intrested, thanks for posting.  

It depends on the blower attached to the engine.  The Merlin 61 in the Spitfire Mk IX has a critical altitude of about 27,000ft, about the same as the Griffon 65 in the Spitfire Mk XIV or the Merlin 71 and 72 in the Mosquito Mk XVI.  The Merlin 70 used by the Spitfire HF.Mk IX and HF.Mk VIII had an even higher critical altitude.  The Merlin 66 in the Spitfire Mk VIII and XVI has a critical altitude of about 18,000ft.  The Merlin 25s in the Mosquito Mk VI have a critical altitude of about 13,000ft.  If I recall correctly, the Merlins in the Spitfire Mk VIII, Spitfire Mk IX, Spitfire Mk XVI, P-51B, P-51D and Mosquito Mk XVI have two speed, two stage superchargers for better performance at their critical altitudes.  The Merlins in the Spitfire Mk I, Spitfire Mk V, Seafire Mk II, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IIc, Hurricane Mk IId and Mosquito Mk VI have a single speed, two stage supercharger.  I am not sure which group the Lancaster or P-40F falls into, but I believe it is the second group.

[Wmaker]

The Merlins in the Spitfire Mk I, Spitfire Mk V, Seafire Mk II, Hurricane Mk I, Hurricane Mk IIc, Hurricane Mk IId and Mosquito Mk VI have a single speed, two stage supercharger.

The earlier Merlins from I to 50-series all had single stage blowers.

[Guppy35]

The Spit XII, which was the first with the Griffon had a single stage supercharger and was rated for it's best performance at lower altitudes.  The majority of the Spitfire VIII, IX, XVI had their Merlins, either 66 or 266 set up for medium to low alt performance as the airwar had moved down by that time.


One of the gripes about the old AH Spitfire V was that it was better then the Spitfire IX.  What folks never considered was the Spitfire LFV had a performance band that was better then the Spitfire FIX which did not perform as well down low as it did up high with the Merlin 61.  The XVI we have and the VIII have  the Merlin 266 or 66 and peform better at lower alts then the Spitfire IX we have which still has the higher alt rated Merlin 61

[skorpion]

The Spit XII, which was the first with the Griffon had a single stage supercharger and was rated for it's best performance at lower altitudes.  The majority of the Spitfire VIII, IX, XVI had their Merlins, either 66 or 266 set up for medium to low alt performance as the airwar had moved down by that time.


One of the gripes about the old AH Spitfire V was that it was better then the Spitfire IX.  What folks never considered was the Spitfire LFV had a performance band that was better then the Spitfire FIX which did not perform as well down low as it did up high with the Merlin 61.  The XVI we have and the VIII have  the Merlin 266 or 66 and peform better at lower alts then the Spitfire IX we have which still has the higher alt rated Merlin 61

so in during the end of the war, they tuned the engines for lower fights correct? but, if that holds true then is it modeled into the game? i did some testing at 10, 15 and 5k with the roll rates. i have to say that at 5k the spit16 rolled just as good as the 190 down there, and at 10 and 15k the 190 had the clear advantage. i tested the spit9 and spit5 turning capabilities, and i have to say that there fairly equal, but the spit5 turns just a bit better. (maybe thats just me)



EDIT: forgot to mention this earlier, would the 190A5 be outrolled by a Spit16? and also, does torque from the engine affect rolling?

[Fender16]

does torque from the engine affect rolling?

Absolutely. If the plane naturally wants to roll right due to the torque of the propeller spinning in said direction, it will roll faster to the right side. Always roll right in a Jug... Just sayin'.

[skorpion]

Absolutely. If the plane naturally wants to roll right due to the torque of the propeller spinning in said direction, it will roll faster to the right side. Always roll right in a Jug... Just sayin'.

ok, thanks. i think the props from the engine turn right on the spit16. not sure about the 190's though. i know the D9 and i think the F8 had electronically enhanced controls so that might help some more.

[Babalonian]

and also, does torque from the engine affect rolling?

1)  I believe the spit-16's propeller does spin in the same direction as the 190's.
2)  Yes.
3)  GOD yes. 

Anyone got a graph somewhere comparing various engine/aircraft torques values? 

[pervert]

Absolutely. If the plane naturally wants to roll right due to the torque of the propeller spinning in said direction, it will roll faster to the right side. Always roll right in a Jug... Just sayin'.

The 190 d11 had boosted controls its not in game though.

[skorpion]

The 190 d11 had boosted controls its not in game though.

so the electronically enhanced controls arent modeled into the game?

wow that sucks...

[Rino]

     Check the hangar, please be sure and let me know when you find a FW-190 D-11 

[skorpion]

     Check the hangar, please be sure and let me know when you find a FW-190 D-11 

i thought you were talking about the P47D11

"DOH!"