The Spitfire XIV Q

[Karnak]

Stuff

Yes, many people in AH mistake heavy controls for compression and don't understand the difference.  That said, the P-38 dives and recovers just fine if you keep it below compression.  400mph is well below compression for the P-38.


Your claims of being a "real pilot" are just another appeal to authority and are rejected as such.  I've seen "real pilots" give boneheaded and incorrect answers many times.

[ink]

Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.

When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything. 

(Image removed from quote.)
Blue is the airflow

It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.

damn you crack me up.

[MachFly]

Your claims of being a "real pilot" are just another appeal to authority and are rejected as such.  I've seen "real pilots" give boneheaded and incorrect answers many times.

I guess since you guys know everything I'm done with this conversation.

[Karnak]

You lied by claiming people all use it like it should be a super Spit XVI.  While I have no doubt that is at times true, the same is going to be true of every other perk fighter as well.  I have used it and I do not use it the same as other Spitfires.

It is much harder to survive in it than it is in other perk planes because it does not have the pure performance to get out of trouble.  Its best performance attribute is its climb rate, and that is nullified by any fighter that comes upon the fight at a higher altitude.  Even a P-40 will over take a climbing Spitfire Mk XIV if it has the altitude on it.  In that situation a Tempest can dive away, but the Spitfire will be run down by a fair number of fighters if it tries to do so.

I guess since you guys know everything I'm done with this conversation.

Appeals to authority are an invalid method of arguing.  You have to provide data, not simply say "I'm right because Bob said so."

[Lusche]

Hilarious thread 

[IrishOne]

Hilarious thread 

indeed     

[Shuffler]

I have to say that it is my opinion that none of the spits should be perked. After all it is mostly new folks that need them to get some experience and confidence. We all know that new folks have the least perks to be delving out on birds.

The only folks able to fly them if they are perked are the ones that have been here awhile but don't fly much and require a more forgiving ride.

[Plazus]

Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.

You think you are the only pilot who flies real aircraft??? There are several people in AH that fly real aircraft. I'm sure any one of them can tell you the usefulness of trim tabs. Just ask the pilots at the Reno Air Races.

When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything.  

The problem is, none of the aircraft in Aces High reach supersonic speeds. Therefore the trim tabs work just as they should. You don't truly "compress" in Aces High because you are not breaking the sound barrier. As Karnak has stated, there are many people who experience very heavy controls at high speeds and think that they are compressing.

It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose.

Most aircraft in WW2 capable of high speeds had trim tabs that were designed to handle the stresses of high speed flight. If none of the aircraft had trim tabs, we would all be flying at 200 mph at ground level, sweating our butts off trying to keep a consistent level flight path. The other thing is that trim tabs helped improve handling at higher speeds compared to aircraft that did not have them at the time.

Your argument to suggest that trim tabs are weak/useless/pathetic isn't convincing. Don't kid yourself in believing that the military designed combat aircraft in WW2 were going to stop themselves short on designing pieces of sh*t if they wanted to win the war.

[Karnak]

Plazus,

The airspeed over parts of WWII aircraft would go supersonic at higher speeds.  When such a pressure wave is over a control surface, particularly the elevators, the aircraft would be in compression.  This is what happened to the P-38 at higher speeds.

[Babalonian]

Well.... this went well....    


So, best I can figure for carrying this conversation forward, closest to the rail it originaly started on, is still a question - is the XIV perked because it exceeds at a quality that is conisdered unbalancing against its general variety of LWMA opponents (I am drawing the opinion that it isn't, although not dismissing that it is quite fast), or is it perked then because it exceeds at the one atribute all the rest of it's bretheren sptifires lack (this I'm thinking is the case, even though it lacks what the rest of its brotheren excell at as well... so again, is the perked price necessary?)?

[Plazus]

Well.... this went well....    


So, best I can figure for carrying this conversation forward, closest to the rail it originaly started on, is still a question - is the XIV perked because it exceeds at a quality that is conisdered unbalancing against its general variety of LWMA opponents (I am drawing the opinion that it isn't, although not dismissing that it is quite fast), or is it perked then because it exceeds at the one atribute all the rest of it's bretheren sptifires lack (this I'm thinking is the case, even though it lacks what the rest of its brotheren excell at as well... so again, is the perked price necessary?)?

In my personal opinion, the Spit14 should either have a reduced perk cost, or no perk cost. Not just because of its performance, but because of the current game play environment. It doesn't see much usage, and is pretty equal to the 109K4 in terms of roles and performance. The Spit14 would not overbalance game play because it has relatively short range, does not carry ords, and can only carry one slipper tank, which doesn't hold a whole lot of fuel either. Spit14 usage will increase some, but I feel it would not be enough to affect the game play experience.

Therefore I support the reduction, or removal, of perk cost of the Spit14.

Plazus,

The airspeed over parts of WWII aircraft would go supersonic at higher speeds.  When such a pressure wave is over a control surface, particularly the elevators, the aircraft would be in compression.  This is what happened to the P-38 at higher speeds.

Yes. I am aware of that. In MachFly's previous post he mentioned that "some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic", which lead me to believe that he was trying to say that the aircraft itself would be moving supersonic, rather than the air around it.

[Ack-Ack]

It can be done, but it's a lot harder than most other planes.

Not at all, it's very easy to recover from a high speed dive in a P-38L or any other P-38 for that matter.  The difficulty comes in when the pilot doesn't know what to do, which is surprising because it is very simple and just a matter of using a little bit of rudder with some throttle control.  Once someone learns, it's like riding a bike and they'll never forget and diving at high speeds will no longer be an issue.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.

When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything. 

(Image removed from quote.)
Blue is the airflow

It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.

You are mistaking the regular compression from high speed aerodynamic airflow over the flight surfaces and not "compressibility".  Compressibility is actually different from compression suffered during high speeds, the phenomena of compressibility happens, in layman's terms, when the airflow over the leading edge of the wing hits critical mach (speed of sound), pushing the center of lift back towards the tail during high speed airflow.  Once the P-38 reached denser air, the pilot was usually able to recover.  Also, a P-38 cannot enter into compressibility below 23,000ft as the airflow over the leading edges of the wing will not reach critical mach.

ack-ack

[MK-84]

Then your going to stop harassing me? LMAO Let's get this straight, in the end of the day I don't give a $h1t what you guys think or say. I think I'm the only pilot here who actually flies real airplanes so I recommend you actually pay attention to what I say.
Now I will explain why trim is useless, in the hopes that HTC will not fix.

When compression occurs some parts of the aircraft are moving supersonic. Because the airframe is not made for supersonic flight the air coming from behind your wings starts buffeting (see picture bellow). Elevators works well when the air passes smoothly other them, when it's buffeting they loose most of their effectiveness (this depends on the speed, airframe, and location of elevators). You can't pull out of a dive not because the pilot is not strong enough, but because the elevators are not doing anything. 

(Image removed from quote.)
Blue is the airflow

It is possible that a trim tab might be able to help, however unlikely. Trim tab changes the shape of your elevator therefore changing the airflow. So if the trim tab is shaped correctly this might work. The odds of it working are extremely low, especially since it was not designed for that purpose. Also the airplane would need to actually have a trim tab, a lot of airplanes' trim works by moving the elevator.
In Aces High using trim to get out of a dive works on every airplane, this is not right.

What parts of the airplane would you suggest are moving supersonic mr. pilot.

[prono]

Now P40s ans P39s have more usage in LWA than Spitfire XIV. Why HTC team is wasting resources for making planes and then don't let us fly them? I use all my perks for Spitfire XIV but I need to kill like 50+ 109Ks to earn new ride and there is something not right in that ratio. Of course I take low eny plane and earn points quicker but this drags me away from XIV. I'm not learning it, loosing my plane quickly or playing runstang (again not learning) getting frustrated and stop flying it for a few days.
Lower the perk cost to 3 or 2 and maybe we can reach a half of the sorties Tempest has. I think it won't unbalance arena too much.