Author Topic: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas  (Read 2640 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« on: October 25, 2011, 09:45:39 AM »
A Cirrus SR22 crashed in Carrollton. One passenger dead, pilot and another passenger hurt. Chute was used but did not fully deploy. Might have been too low.


http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Small-plane-down-near-Carrollton-high-school-132471913.html?hpt=us_bn5
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Offline icepac

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 10:49:49 AM »
Either too low or too fast.

There's a pretty narrow part of the flight envelope that the chute will work within.

Offline Tupac

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 10:52:31 AM »
Cirrus recommends 3500' for chute deployment IIRC

Very sad indeed
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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 11:05:48 AM »
Cirrus recommends 3500' for chute deployment IIRC

Very sad indeed

I'm not positive, but that seems a bit high. I know a doctor who owns a Cirrus, I'll have to ask her next time I see her at the airport. Or I can sneak into her hanger and read the POH  :uhoh

Wolfalfa should probably know for certain.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 11:14:41 AM »
The Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association Web site reports that Cirrus aircraft equipped with the "ballistic parachute" technology had "saved" 26 aircraft with a total of 50 survivors as of May 12 of this year. The Web site states that "no person has died when the CAPS (Cirrus Airframe Parachute System) deployed within design parameters," which is when the plane is traveling under 150 mph and is above 920 feet in a descent.

The owner's association reports that there have been three previous Cirrus crashes involving parachute deployment in Texas:

October 2002, Lewisville: The first reported CAPS activation. The pilot was unhurt.
August 2010, Porter: One person seriously injured.
December 2010, Nacogdoches: One person unhurt.


Snippit from the link.
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 11:24:12 AM »
I'm not positive, but that seems a bit high. I know a doctor who owns a Cirrus, I'll have to ask her next time I see her at the airport. Or I can sneak into her hanger and read the POH  :uhoh

Wolfalfa should probably know for certain.

I do. A bit busy now between the crash last week at DXR  up the road from me with a handsomehunk hitting an obstruction lite, and this one. Suffice to say, this pilot reported engine trouble, went missed on the ils, lost it and had a low altitude chute pull. Rear pax dead and 2 fronts survived.



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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2011, 11:27:26 AM »
The Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association Web site reports that Cirrus aircraft equipped with the "ballistic parachute" technology had "saved" 26 aircraft with a total of 50 survivors as of May 12 of this year. The Web site states that "no person has died when the CAPS (Cirrus Airframe Parachute System) deployed within design parameters," which is when the plane is traveling under 150 mph and is above 920 feet in a descent.

The owner's association reports that there have been three previous Cirrus crashes involving parachute deployment in Texas:

October 2002, Lewisville: The first reported CAPS activation. The pilot was unhurt.
August 2010, Porter: One person seriously injured.
December 2010, Nacogdoches: One person unhurt.


Snippit from the link.


Key is within the deployment limits. Weve had deployments far above the limiting speed, and Boris Popov from BRS instructed us after Oshkosh to eliminate the altitude limitation entirely from our vocabulary. Logic being any chute pull will reduce the energy of impact to maybe survivable instead of dead.


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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2011, 11:43:07 AM »
Cirrus recommends 3500' for chute deployment IIRC

Very sad indeed

Incorrect. We teach there is no limiting altitude for deployment.


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Offline B4Buster

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2011, 12:29:50 PM »
Article said he tried turning back to the airport. How far from it was he? I don't recall the article saying. Turning back is probably one of the last things I would do in case of engine failure on climbout, but then again the Beech Sport I fly only climbs at aroung 500 fpm. What would a Cirrus loaded with three grown men climb at (roughly, assuming each man was near 200 lbs)
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Offline xNOVAx

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 12:36:41 PM »
Wolfala,

In your opinion (since you fly a cirrus with a chute). Do you think that the chute allows pilots to 'not know how to recover from a bad situation' as well as they should because they know they have a fall back option? Basically is the psychology of a pilot with a chute different from the psychology of a pilot without one? Just curious what you think (BTW I'm not saying the pilot did anything wrong in this situation specifically, we'll wait for the NTSB report for that).


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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 12:40:27 PM »
I think I have an explanation for the rumor that the chute split.  It appears that the canopy separated from the risers and the wreckage.


Had a chance to investigate an oddity in one of the news photos.  Notice the odd lines on the wing:





When I first noticed the odd lines, I didn't notice the white lines behind the first responders.  Later, I discovered a TV news report that panned across the wreckage site.  The first image shows a quite different aspect of those white lines:





 They are the parachute risers!  Hmmm... I thought I saw the parachute on the other side of the wreckage?


In the TV news video, they pan across the field and show the entire debris field.  Here's a frame grab that shows the debris field (blurriness due to panning):


The parachute and right wing are down the hill to the left and the main wreckage is on the right.  The main wreckage shows the white lines pointing farther away from the canopy.  Hmmm...   Here's a still of the parachute canopy:





Then I realized that the white lines I had ignored are the parachute risers.  And they have snagged on something that has placed some tension to keep them straight horizontal.  Yet, the colorful canopy, which normally is attached to the risers, is found separate and beyond the wreckage away from the direction of the risers.


My guess is that the plane tumbled after the canopy deployed, the risers and canopy snagged on something, the right wing fractured the spar and separated taking the canopy with it while the risers stopped the main cockpit wreckage.


If the parachute deployed upon impact while the plane was moving quickly and tumbling, then it got tangled up in the wreckage.


If the parachute was deployed at low altitude before impact, then the trajectory of the impact may have been altered, possibly contributing to the tumbling.


If the parachute was deployed at sufficient altitude 8 seconds prior to impact, then the impact velocity would have been reduced to 17 knots and this kind of wreckage would be highly unlikely.


Hope the investigators will find sufficient data soon so they can answer what happened when during the deployment and impact sequence.


Just 8 seconds . . .



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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2011, 02:11:54 PM »
In the report I linked witnesses saw the chute deploy while in the air.
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Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 02:27:32 PM »
In the report I linked witnesses saw the chute deploy while in the air.

When a plane crashed in the US, it becomes, by law, a federal crime scene. All wreckage and data become part of the investigation.  Substantial damage or serious injuries require an investigation by the NTSB.  (Less serious accidents may be investigated by the FAA using pilot interviews and self-reported data.)


When the NTSB launches an investigation, several parties are added to the investigation team, typically the aircraft manufacturer and the engine manufacturer, but occasionally other parties may become involved as circumstances warrant.  For instance, the supplier of the parachute, BRS Aerospace, was involved in many early Cirrus investigations, as has Amsafe, the supplier of airbags.


Cirrus Aircraft maintains an active accident investigation team, their Air Safety group, that operates independently and reports separately in the company from the engineering, manufacturing and sales or marketing departments.  They have access to all those resources, but have separate objectives to understand what happened in the accident sequence.


One valuable resource for investigators of Cirrus aircraft accidents in the large amount of recorded flight data.  Avidyne Entegra models retain engine, navigation and flight attitude data in both the PFD and MFD.  Perspective models retain some data in the PFD and MFD, but importantly a comprehensive set of data are recored in a data capture device located in the tail, the Remote Data Module.  These data sets become part of the accident investigation and are analyzed by the NTSB Vehicle Recorder Lab.  Several accident investigations have revealed surprising results from those analyses that clearly indicate what the pilot was facing as the accident sequence unfolded.


So, if a Cirrus does down, then an investigation is started.  And Cirrus accident investigators are called in for most US and many foreign investigations.


COPA maintains a good and discrete working relationship with the Cirrus Air Safety team.  All of the investigation parties are bound by non-disclosure until the factual report is approved and released by the NTSB.  So, the Cirrus folks are unable to share details until after the completion of the investigation.


For this Carrollton accident, it is highly likely that very good data will be recovered to show exactly when the CAPS handle was activated, what decelerations were recorded and how the flight dynamics happened.  Physical investigation will determine the status of the parachute canopy and risers, from which their tell-tale signatures reveal if the canopy was fully inflated or damaged.


Oh, by the way, witness statements are often inconsistent with the recorded data.  Reports of engine noise, sputtering, cut-out, often do not show in the data.  In this case, the parachute activation involves 90' risers so a post-impact deployment may be observed as if the plane was still in the air yet was actually already on the ground.  Don't know details, but do know that witness statements need corroboration.


Wish the outcome were different.  


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Wolfala

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 02:54:08 PM »
Wolfala,

In your opinion (since you fly a cirrus with a chute). Do you think that the chute allows pilots to 'not know how to recover from a bad situation' as well as they should because they know they have a fall back option? Basically is the psychology of a pilot with a chute different from the psychology of a pilot without one? Just curious what you think (BTW I'm not saying the pilot did anything wrong in this situation specifically, we'll wait for the NTSB report for that).

Nova,

Sinc yr from my old hood I'll cut you a little slack. We are seeing many different cross sections of pilots these days. The primary buyers are business owners taking advantage of accelerated and bonus depreciation for the purposes of lowering their taxable obligations. These buyers maybe pilots already, but I know a large number who are in training. Further down the line are the mid level adopters who bought new years ago and kept the same airframe without offering upgrade mania like the iPhone. They might've downsized from Cessna 414s or 206s and wanted a traveling machine -essentially empty nesters. The next type was the serial upgrader - a few that had 4 airframes over the years and would buy new before the warranty ran out. They essentially could afford the depreciation hit. The last and newest type has been the used buyers - since each new iteration depresses the prices a bit, it's more affordable for those enteringnthe market. And also if you have a distressed buyer you can get it for a song if needbe.

That said, the vast majority of owners are prior owners of other types. Their cross section is similar in that to a Bonanza or higher end Mooney. The newer blood coming in, may not necessarily have the skill set to fly this aircraft - but that doesn't stop many. for a high performance single, the avionics systems complexity rivals that of many airliners. Especially the latest Garmin Perspctive iterations.

I dunno if that helps, but when stuff goes wrong in these air craft, with passengers, and poor weather - not everyone is cut out for that job and pressure. Just hope you played the odds right and it's not yr turn, because it can happen to any one of us.


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline B4Buster

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Re: Cirrus SR22 Crash Texas
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 02:57:12 PM »
Wolf, one of the Cirrus articles I read stated the Cirrus is "nearly impossible to recover from a spin". Is that true?
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