109 flap deployment speed

[STEELE]

The charts I've read show allowable deployment of the 109's infinetely adjustable flaps of up to 20 degrees at 450kph (280mph), why is this not modeled in game?  
Also, they should be able to deploy about 15 degrees at 300+ mph
 

sorry, had to erase the link to ww2aircraft.net, as it put an adware on my screen after I got out! (was my source)

[morfiend]

I cant access the charts on that forum but the only mention of 450km is in a question.

  There's a long debate in help and training about this subject and no definitive answer was found,if you can supply documentation that shows deployment speeds above 300kph then maybe HTC will revisit the flap speeds on the 109's.


   

[STEELE]

I cant access the charts on that forum but the only mention of 450km is in a question.

  There's a long debate in help and training about this subject and no definitive answer was found,if you can supply documentation that shows deployment speeds above 300kph then maybe HTC will revisit the flap speeds on the 109's.


   

Actually, the person translated the charts and was just asking if he did it right.  (which he did, it's impossible not to get it right if you can read German)   
I didn't see the thread in Training, thanks for pointing that out!
So we have the figure on 20 percent deployment, what's next?

[Butcher]

I cant access the charts on that forum but the only mention of 450km is in a question.

  There's a long debate in help and training about this subject and no definitive answer was found,if you can supply documentation that shows deployment speeds above 300kph then maybe HTC will revisit the flap speeds on the 109's.


  

I have some documents in question - but I seriously consider the source as impossible or they were falsely made - Russians captured a 109G and field tested it and the test pilot confirmed the flaps were able to deploy at high speeds, It would not go into details which 109G model was in question.

I want to say the model in question has to be pointed as a G-5/U2/R2 or G-6/U3 - and probably some kind of field modification to allow high speed flaps, but again the document I was reading was in Russian and I question its source behind it as "fairy tale".

This is speculation because the versions I listed above are what was operating in the area at the time, my speculation of which versions he has to be questioning.

For anyone's interest - it was around Leningrad, didn't give any dates, or units or any information that would help me research this more, perhaps someone can look at the units in the area and gather more information then I can.

I went through roughly 1200 pages of PDF files trying to hunt this information down without any clue to high speed flaps being answered.

[FLS]

Actually, the person translated the charts and was just asking if he did it right.  (which he did, it's impossible not to get it right if you can read German)   
I didn't see the thread in Training, thanks for pointing that out!
So we have the figure on 20 percent deployment, what's next?

What's next is you post a document showing the IAS speed for flap deployment as normal practice.

[STEELE]

What's next is you post a document showing the IAS speed for flap deployment as normal practice.

I would post the link to the original chart but I had to X out an advertisement last time I left that site. (adware?)
In Joachim Marseille's debriefings he uses flaps at high speed ALL the time for deflection shooting. (for 1 of many examples of flap usage at hi spd)
It's easy to find lots of info showing that 109 flaps were officially allowed to be / were used at speeds of 280 mph and up,
I'm not able to post them here with the device I'm currently using  
P47 manual (and cockpit placard ingame!)  "Do not lower flaps above 195 mph", and Holy Moley, they can use em at 375+??
Our 109 / 190 flaps magically raise when you get above 190mph or so indicated!   
 109 flap speed should definitely be raised to 20 degrees allowed at 280,  Then LuftVhiners can stop assuming there is a  double flap standard in place.  
I understand there is lots to be done in the game, but this could be a very, very easy fix!
Can someone with the knowhow post the 109/190 flap speed charts for me? (not the old manual info on landing onlyflap operation)
 PM me for the site if needed.  
  Ps,  German manuals also say 109 can safely be flown with gear down up to 350kph,  FWIW

[gyrene81]

no offense steele, as much as i'd like to see the 109 flap deployment speeds change...i'd like to see the references you have that claims 20 degrees of flap at 280mph ias "officially allowed". that chart you're talking about is only 1 page from a bigger document and it cannot be corroborated with any other documentation, nobody accepted it as legit the last time it was posted in a flap discussion, i doubt those opinions have changed.

[Angus]

AFAIK Marseille used the flaps to make low speed "bat turns" while his mates provided cover at higher speed. His kills were normally while flapping inside the enemy, letting it overshoot/pass, and at extremely short range.
This was not common practise, and would in his case mean that he vacumed up the kills from his buddies.
I asked Gunther Rall about this, and it was simply in his case a NO. Took too long to deploy he said.
Have heard the number 30 seconds from nil to full, and slower at high speeds due to it becoming heavier to turn the wheel.
Rall also commented on the slats, which he did not prefer in fast/rough maneuvers, since they threw him out of the aim.

[Krusty]

Then LuftVhiners can stop assuming there is a  double flap standard in place.  

I think you're the only one making this a double standard, especially with your previous comment about how you think the reason this isn't done is a HTC-wide conspiracy to keep the LW planes nerfed so they can't "compete" with US rides...

[PR3D4TOR]

Page 11 of the 109G6 pilot's handbook says "Flug bei voll angestellten Landeklappen" ("Flight with fully employed landing flaps") 250 kph (155 mph).

On the same page: "Flug mit ausgefahrenem Fahrwerk" ("Flight with deployed landing gear") 350 kph (217 mph).

Full flaps on the 109G was 40 degrees. For take-off they were set to 20 degrees. Combat setting was up to 10 degrees.





I assume it is this document that is in question:

[FLS]

What is the source for 10 degrees combat flaps?

[Stoney]

Steele, most flap deployment speeds in POHs and placards are for full flaps.  The problem is finding documentation of partial flap deployment speeds.  U.S. rides have it.  A lot of other countries don't, as it was a technique approved by the U.S. as the war progressed.  I think it was another of Lindbergh's contributions.

[edit] doesn't mean some enterprising 109 pilot never did it, just that there's no documentation that says it was approved. 

[PR3D4TOR]

What is the source for 10 degrees combat flaps?

Anecdotal mostly, and nothing I can source at the moment. From what I've read 10 degrees of flaps could be used at will, even up to the 109G's vmax of 750 kph. One pilot I've read about used to crank out one turn of the wheel when attacking B-17's from altitude to avoid over speeding when diving away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8

[Baumer]

Just like the P-40 discussion I would assume the best bet to finding higher documented flap speeds for the 109 (or any other plane), is to look for max weight take off procedures.

[FLS]

Anecdotal mostly, and nothing I can source at the moment. From what I've read 10 degrees of flaps could be used at will, even up to the 109G's vmax of 750 kph. One pilot I've read about used to crank out one turn of the wheel when attacking B-17's from altitude to avoid over speeding when diving away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8

Cranking one turn of flaps for dive speed control, with 30 cranks equal to 40 degrees, makes no sense to me. What seems more likely is the pilot cranked in some stabilizer trim.