Author Topic: 109 flap deployment speed  (Read 3924 times)

Offline Angus

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2011, 06:11:01 AM »
PR3D4TOR:
I asked Gunther Rall about both the flaps and the slats.
Slats: Not preferred in combat, since they would throw you off your aim without a warning in rough turns,- the effect being that the outboard wing would drop. However necessary, for without them the landing speed would have been unacceptably high.
Flaps: Effective for landing, but too slow to deploy in combat.

I did ask him about this more than once, and he was very clear about this.
He was also very happy with the systems in the U.S. fighters. Deploy one quart flaps with a flick of a switch.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2011, 09:00:20 AM »
I think we've established that the flaps were slow to deploy, but they were used in combat by both Luftwaffe and FiAF pilots. There were no doctrines to use them. The Luftwaffe had a very individualist approach to how they practiced their art. They didn't even have checklists for normal procedures like take off and landing, which may have been a significant factor in their losses to accidents.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2011, 09:06:09 AM »
Rall vs Predator


its a close call but ... hmmmm ... I'm going to believe Gunther :)
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2011, 09:19:19 AM »
... and call Franz Stigler a liar in the process?
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Offline Lusche

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2011, 09:30:41 AM »
Personally, in matters of air combat I'd take Ralls word over Stieglers anytime.

Just saying.
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Offline coombz

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2011, 09:32:24 AM »
... and call Franz Stigler a liar in the process?

whichever way you look at it, you can't base the in game flight modelling on a bunch of often contradictory anecdotal evidence *shrug*
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2011, 09:53:41 AM »
That's not what's in question here. Rall said he didn't like the slats and didn't use flaps in combat. Stigler said he did like the slats and that other pilots he knew liked them and used flaps in combat. These two statements are not mutually exclusive. They only show that pilots are individuals with different preferences and likes.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2011, 09:59:37 AM »
Personally, in matters of air combat I'd take Ralls word over Stieglers anytime.

Just saying.
granted stigler was a drunkard but how about the words of 4 finnish aces and another german ace with 100+ victories?
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2011, 02:46:50 PM »
Calling Stigler a drunkard is a bit disrespectful considering his noble and heroic actions in the air. However there are significant differences between the service histories of Rall and Stigler which may have influenced their choice of tactics.

After France and the Battle of Britain Rall served on the Russian front, flying against Soviet aircraft at low to medium altitudes. Only in the summer of 1944 did Rall engage the western allies over Germany and shortly thereafter he was wounded and hospitalized; afterwards he became an instructor.

Stigler on the other hand served his entire career in Africa and in defense of the Reich in Austria and Germany with JG27. Later he joined the famous JV44 “Der Galland Zirkus” flying 262's. He was a personal friend of Adolf Galland, the only person he would lend his "lucky white 3" 262. That's until Leutnant Pirchhan persuaded Stigler to let him fly “lucky White 3”. Soon after taking off Pirchhan crashed north of the airfield, totally destroying the aircraft and was fatally wounded. He died a few hours later in a farmer’s field while being comforted by Stigler. A day before, Galland himself was wounded and passed command of JV44 to the indomitable Oberstleutnant Heinz Bär.

Franz Stigler survived the war having flown over 500 combat missions, was shot down 17 times, captured once briefly and had 28 confirmed victories to his credit, including 11 four-engine bombers, plus over 30 other “probables”. His decorations include the Iron Cross 2nd Class, the Iron Cross 1st Class, and the German Cross in Gold. The great conflict ended before he could receive the “Knights Cross” he had been nominated for.

And then there's the incident with Charlie Brown...

« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 02:57:50 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline morfiend

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2011, 03:52:44 PM »
What turn loss? What do you think 10 degrees of flaps at 400 will do for you?


 Yes this is what I'd,at around 220 like to know!  anything above corner speed and your G limited,meaning 6 G's and you blackout. The corner speed on the 109's is in the 220 to 240 range,I dont have the exact figgure on hand but I think most understand.


 So having flaps that you can deploy above corner speed are of no use,ok you can blackout quicker I guess.

  Now if you really want to help the luft planes,find out the deployment speeds for the 190's,at around 220 mph you can only pull about 2.5 G's before the wing stalls.




     :salute

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2011, 06:17:54 PM »
Angels...



Using combat flaps at high speed allows for a tighter turn at the same G loading by bleeding E faster.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 06:24:40 PM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2011, 05:18:41 PM »
I have no idea about the deployment speed of flaps on the 109, but in an engineering sense, it would seem that the allowable speed for deployment of 10 deg would be higher than speed for deployment of full.

Also, with regard to use of flaps, you can find US pilots who never used flaps in combat for, say, the F4U and those that did use them in combat.  It was much more common for pilots not to use flaps in combat, regardless of the plane, because much more of the combat in WWII was boom and zoom than it was stallfighting.

Offline Angus

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2011, 05:29:46 AM »
Rall was actually very happy with the flaps on the U.S. aircraft he tested. To be able to drop a notch with just flicking a switch. Same with the boosted ailerons of the p-38 which he also flew.
His words on the 109 flaps was that there was little time to work them in fast combat, and therefore they were generally not used.
On the slots, he claimed they were necessary because otherwise the landing speed would have been unacceptably high.
I have tested a small plane with slots, and I too tight tuns. It was funny, it jinked the nose a bit when they deployed.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Grendel

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2011, 09:16:50 AM »
Personally, in matters of air combat I'd take Ralls word over Stieglers anytime.

Just saying.

Why do you think either one is wrong or liar?
There are as many preference to flying and fighting as there are pilots. Some ME 109 pilots used flaps, some didn't. Some were able to use the advantage of slats in dogfight, some did not. Some liked to fly their 109 with 3 cannons, some didnt.

Offline Angus

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Re: 109 flap deployment speed
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2011, 09:46:43 AM »
Some preferred a a low turning combat with a high speed cover, and some did not. Some preferred engaging at a superior speed and make a quick kill, such as Rall, who was a superb shot, but at a very high speed, dropping flaps is slower, the time for it will also be less, and slat reaction much more violent. Which is my point. It needs a special condition to release a hand for cranking a wheel, - generally a condition not preferred by 109 tacticians
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)