Author Topic: Submarines  (Read 1863 times)

Offline TheRhino

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Submarines
« on: November 15, 2011, 04:24:33 AM »
This has probably been mentioned thousands of times, but I think that U-boats and subs should be the next thing added to the game.


Any comments would be appreciated.  :salute
"May the Air Force be with you"


TheHawk, C.O. 457th 'Grey Nurse' SQN RAAF (Currently Inactive due to slow internet :( )

Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2011, 04:29:55 AM »
Do a fly-by of a port, and take a close look.

Wish granted.  :noid

Offline MAINER

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2011, 05:06:23 AM »
Do a fly-by of a port, and take a close look.

Wish granted.  :noid

Yah but we cant use them
Are those our bombers?-famous last words



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Offline TheRhino

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 05:11:19 AM »
Yah but we cant use them
Exactly my point. I know that we already hav "ragdoll" subs (for want of a better term), but we should also have mannable submersable vehicles.
"May the Air Force be with you"


TheHawk, C.O. 457th 'Grey Nurse' SQN RAAF (Currently Inactive due to slow internet :( )

Offline wil3ur

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 09:49:42 AM »
Exactly my point. I know that we already hav "ragdoll" subs (for want of a better term), but we should also have mannable submersable vehicles.

WTF?!?!?!  That guy just flew under the map!  HACKS!!!!
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Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 09:50:48 AM »
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline Mano

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 11:41:11 AM »
A mid-war German U-boat? The Pt boats could hear those diesel engines coming.

Could the programmers develop an underwater terrain that interfaces with the current terrain?  hmmmmmmmmmmm





Would be fun if the carrier group or the Pt boats could fight the submarines.

The Pt boats could spawn camp the port to prevent subs from getting out.  :D

The subs would also need remote spawns near enemy ports to cut down the time
getting to the fight, much like the GV remote spawns.

Instead of Sheep...............Mermaids?  LOL.


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Offline PuppetZ

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 12:25:45 PM »
This has been wished for multiple times in the past. Last time it was brought up, I did give this idea some thought. While this might sound like a good idea on the surface, there are multiple problems that arise when you stop and really think about how the submarine work, it's capabilities in term of speed, firepower and endurance, especially submerged capabilities vs it's target.

First, let's look at the fleet submarine(USN sub) capabilities. We'll take as our 'average' mid/late war 'typical' fleet boat, a Balao class USN fleet submarine. It had a 21 knots surfaced flank speed, with optimal range of 11 000 miles@10knots. It managed a whooping 8.75 knots submerged at flank bell. Let's note here that under the current setup, our carrier group sail at a permanent flank speed of 35 knots, meaning that if one of these spotted a cv group from a trailing position, there is no way for it to get into position. Even if you are ahead of the group, that is no guarantee that you'll catch it. Of course there is always the possibility of spawning one close to a port when a CV get close but then there is still the problem of getting in attack position as in that situation, you'd be submerged and limited to 9 knots vs the 35+ of the CG. Also note that the submerged flank bell endurance is quite limited. And once your batteries start to deplete, it cripple your submerged speed by that much. A type XXI U-boat enjoy a much improved submerged speed at 18kts. Yet still not enough to be practical against one of our CG.

We also have to consider the problems brought up by the ASUW aspect. The introduction of the submarine will create a need for specialized weapons to handle the threat. Some we already have in bombs that could be used against surfaced or very shallow subs, some we don't as the depth charge and some ASUW capable ship like the corvette/destroyer, the PBY (and other sea recon planes). Then we have all the aspect of acoustic detection to consider, as much for the sub as for the destroyer with ASDIC, passive sonar suit, active sonar suit for subs, radar(that were used extensively during mid-late war by the US fleet in the pacific). Capabilities and vehicles and systems that would have to be introduced at the same time as the subs.

One last thing to consider is the time scale at which AH is played. It's basically real time so for a fleet boat doing flank bell @ 20-21kts surfaced(Type XXI U-boat did not go faster submerged or sufaced), we're looking at 1:15h to cross a 25 miles sector. The point is all sub-sim games I played(sub command/dangerous waters/silent hunter 2-3-4) have a time compression capability, allowing the player to skip the tedious part and jump right into the action.

I'm not saying it can not/should not be done. I just have a hard time figuring how this could be made realistic enough, up to AH standard, and yet fun. It would be hard to make it so without profound changes to the way surface warfare is done. We'd need many players manned boat sailing all over the place to make it worthwhile to up a sub. Just chasing CV group would hardly justify the introduction of subs by itself as, as of now,  our CG woulkd easily outrun most, if not all, subs used during WW2 and they are just too far in between. If some sort of resupply convoy system could be implemented along with the subs to provide some targets, it would be another thing.

My 2 cents on the matter.

 :salute
LCDR. Frank 'PuppetZ' Perreault, Squadron intelligence officer

VF-17 Jolly Rogers
'Kids, you tried and failed miserably. The lesson is : never try'

Offline MachFly

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 12:37:13 PM »
HiTech already said that he wants to add it.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline PuppetZ

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 12:42:39 PM »
Well, I'm eager to see how it will be done and how they will overcome the limitations of the subs.

I'll just wait and see then.

 :salute
LCDR. Frank 'PuppetZ' Perreault, Squadron intelligence officer

VF-17 Jolly Rogers
'Kids, you tried and failed miserably. The lesson is : never try'

Online The Fugitive

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 01:17:32 PM »
I think they would be great used from PT spawn point at all shore.bases. Sub spawned at periscope depth and is used to defend the shore line base simulating a patrolling sub.

This would help deter cv groups from coming in to close to shore solving the cv ack capping the base problem as.well.

Offline wil3ur

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 01:20:02 PM »
I think they would be great used from PT spawn point at all shore.bases. Sub spawned at periscope depth and is used to defend the shore line base simulating a patrolling sub.

This would help deter cv groups from coming in to close to shore solving the cv ack capping the base problem as.well.

+1...  and maybe add "Sub-Nets" out to sea to keep subs from going out too far and keep enemy "Attack Submarines"(need not be added) from getting in close to shore.
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Offline alpini13

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 01:43:30 PM »
this would be nice in game for port defence.

Type XXVII B 5 (Seehund) midget submarine
Class overview
Builders: Germaniawerft, Kiel
Operators:  Kriegsmarine
 French Navy
Built: 1944–1945
In commission: 1944–1945
Planned: 1,000
Completed: 285
Active: 138
Lost: 35
General characteristics
Displacement: 17 long tons (17 t) submerged
Length: 39 ft (12 m)
Beam: 5 ft (1.5 m)
Propulsion: 1 x 60 hp Büssing Diesel engine
25 hp AEG electric motor
Speed: 7 kn (13 km/h; 8.1 mph) surfaced
3 kn (5.6 km/h; 3.5 mph) submerged
Range: 270 nmi (500 km; 310 mi) at 7 kn (13 km/h; 8.1 mph) surfaced
63 nmi (117 km; 72 mi) at 4 kn (7.4 km/h; 4.6 mph) submerged
Complement: 2
Armament: 2 G7e torpedoes

Offline PuppetZ

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 02:02:41 PM »
I have to say that Fugitive got the right idea of how it could pssibly work in AH. I was maybe a little too biased by the fact I took submarine for ocean going sub and did not think of it from a base defense POV. I still believe that confining them to that role only would not render them justice as to the overall capabilities of the weapon system. A submarine is a little like a sniper. Hide, strike and flee.
LCDR. Frank 'PuppetZ' Perreault, Squadron intelligence officer

VF-17 Jolly Rogers
'Kids, you tried and failed miserably. The lesson is : never try'

Offline MachFly

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Re: Submarines
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 06:35:35 PM »
Well, I'm eager to see how it will be done and how they will overcome the limitations of the subs.

I'll just wait and see then.

 :salute

I'm curious as well, I guess that's why we still don't have them.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s