Author Topic: Real Life Zombies in Russia  (Read 7066 times)

Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2011, 12:32:32 PM »
Should release this under secrecy, would do the world a favor to get rid of drug addicts


Well, if you did get rid of drug addicts then your drug free existence would suddenly become valueless, so you're better off with balance in the world.
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Offline Rob52240

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2011, 12:38:21 PM »
Should release this under secrecy, would do the world a favor to get rid of drug addicts

Yes, if we introduced this in the us all drug addicts would immediately switch to it as their drug of choice.

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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2011, 12:41:46 PM »
I personally feel that for someone who has gotten so desperate that they are willing to use such a horrifying drug, compassion is in order.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2011, 01:18:20 PM »
Problem is that compassion doesn't help stop the withdrawl symptoms. Whats really needed is to restrain them untill they get over the withdrawls, and hopefully, with support, they can stay off it.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2011, 02:16:24 PM »
In the bigger picture it's just dawinism in action for the better of the spieces. Evolution doesn't give a fig about the individual.
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Offline warhed

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2011, 03:19:08 PM »
In the bigger picture it's just dawinism in action for the better of the spieces. Evolution doesn't give a fig about the individual.

Seeing as how alcoholism/addiction is a genetic disorder (eg American Indians, Irish, other populations with very high alcoholism rates), that may not be the case.
It is believed the alcoholism gene is a genetic response to populations under extreme stress, much the same way cannibalism has been shown to pop up after communities come under extreme stress.

Unlike cannibalism however, alcoholism is believed to actually help those populations survive by providing organisms with a better chance of surviving dire times.  If you step back and look at alcoholism/addiction as a side effect of that survival instinct, you'll see that it's not going to be bred out of society.  Once a society hits a certain level of stress and suffering, you will see alcoholism rates increase I would guess.  

It's an evolutionary response to help the human species survive, but with horrible side effects (that conveniently breeds itself out of the gene pool once a population comes out of that highly stressful situation).

And by stress in my response, I mean stress upon a group such as, war, famine, overpopulation, disease, etc.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 03:20:55 PM by warhed »
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #36 on: November 26, 2011, 11:14:38 PM »
Desise and overpopulation is questionable. Severe overpopulation often leads to desiese. Drugs and alchahol can weaken the immune system, which would be detrimental to survival under those circumstances. Our bodies are amazingly clever, and would probably recognize that weakening the immune system in the presense of a deadly disese is tantamount to suicide.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2011, 06:29:53 AM »
Seeing as how alcoholism/addiction is a genetic disorder (eg American Indians, Irish, other populations with very high alcoholism rates), that may not be the case.
It is believed the alcoholism gene is a genetic response to populations under extreme stress, much the same way cannibalism has been shown to pop up after communities come under extreme stress.

Unlike cannibalism however, alcoholism is believed to actually help those populations survive by providing organisms with a better chance of surviving dire times.  If you step back and look at alcoholism/addiction as a side effect of that survival instinct, you'll see that it's not going to be bred out of society.  Once a society hits a certain level of stress and suffering, you will see alcoholism rates increase I would guess.  

It's an evolutionary response to help the human species survive, but with horrible side effects (that conveniently breeds itself out of the gene pool once a population comes out of that highly stressful situation).

And by stress in my response, I mean stress upon a group such as, war, famine, overpopulation, disease, etc.


Interesting points. Could we make a distinction between highly stressful addiction, for instance those in the trenches of WWI, and addiction due to boredom, such as a perfectly easy living middle class teenager injecting smack? The second must be different to stress induced addiction.
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Offline warhed

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2011, 06:58:23 AM »
Desise and overpopulation is questionable. Severe overpopulation often leads to desiese. Drugs and alchahol can weaken the immune system, which would be detrimental to survival under those circumstances. Our bodies are amazingly clever, and would probably recognize that weakening the immune system in the presense of a deadly disese is tantamount to suicide.

Evolution doesn't "choose" the better way, the ways that don't work get eliminated, leaving the ways that worked.  It's thought the alcoholism gene is a leftover of whatever mechanism helps survival in times when populations come under stress.  

For an easy example to help make sense of it, look at your average homeless drug addict.  Often times they suffer from skin diseases and cancers and other serious ailments that would kill or completely immobilize a healthy person. Alcoholism, or whatever is behind it, makes a person much more resistant to harsh environments.  That's how the theory goes at least.  I'll try to find some sources that explain it more scientifically than I ever could.  I'm not arguing that alcoholism is good for humans.  For the individual, alcoholism is just like any other disease, detrimental to the organism.  For the population however, it may help the species.  The idea is, keep an organism alive so it can breed, even at the health of that organism.


Interesting points. Could we make a distinction between highly stressful addiction, for instance those in the trenches of WWI, and addiction due to boredom, such as a perfectly easy living middle class teenager injecting smack? The second must be different to stress induced addiction.

We're talking much longer time scales.  More than one generation type timescale.  What is happening in Russia is the leftover alcoholics in the gene pool who haven't died off and bred themselves out yet.  
Anywhere in the world where you have had extended periods of famine, war, disease, or other factors, you will find high levels of alcoholism in the genetic pool.  As those societies come out of the periods of duress, the alcoholic gene will die off.  It's not healthy for an individual to carry the disease in it's active state.  Which is where modern man comes into play, because of our increased health and medicine systems as a society, it takes longer for the alcoholic gene to die off through generations, if we're even allowing it to die out at all anymore.  

The scary aspect of this theory is that as we advance as a species, we have been putting more and more effort into helping the alcoholics and other diseased.  While I completely agree with the fact we should continue to help those who need it, you have to wonder, are we hurting the human species by not only allowing, but helping the genetically weak survive?  No other animal species on earth other than humans is capable of going against Mother Nature's (and/or God's) evolutionary rules.  (for a simple example, the more we take antibiotics, the more bacteria are able to resist them.  Or when hygiene became more prevalent in Europe, we lost our resistance to some diseases)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 07:06:35 AM by warhed »
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2011, 07:43:19 AM »
 Yes, I find myself agreeing with everything you wrote. I am very much interested in how we have changed evolution by giving those that would die a chance to survive. This happens in thousands of way along with what you emntion about addicts. On the selfless side of things I see it as a bad thing for humanity. On the selfsih side of things I am very grateful for the medical skills that help put my bones back together when I broke them. This is interesting too because me breaking my bones is not actualy genetic weakness because I didnt have weak bones, I did stupid things that no bones could withstand. But perhaps it is stupidity, which is definitely an attribute we could do with evolving beyond.

 Perhaps if we do eliminate all the humans with genetics that prompt them to drink when facing extreme stress then we may find ourselves in a society that simply implodes in those situations rather than fights through to the other side?
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2011, 08:07:16 AM »
Nein, Du mussen Schnappi suche!
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Perhaps if we do eliminate all the humans with genetics that prompt them to drink when facing extreme stress then we may find ourselves in a society that simply implodes in those situations rather than fights through to the other side?

That would indeed be an outcome I can imagine

Apart from any imminent questions about morality...

Genetics are very complex, end the results of genes in action are even more so. In many cases, there is no simple "switch" do shut one thing off and on. Genes are interacting in may ways and affecting very different things.
Assumed this is possible at all: If we "eliminate" (sorry, I'm still very uncomfortable with such expressions considering my national history)  all humans with those genetics that prompt them to drink, we may also lose some genetic traits that have a totally different hidden (?) function or "benefit" for the species in another area.



----------------


This thread made me also ponder some thoughts about that thing called "free will" again, one pet peeve of mine. I have very contradicting views / opinions on that matter: I am a believer and proponent of the concept "Everyone is responsible or has to assume responsibility for his own life and actions". Yet I am fully aware that many people don't have that choice, even it it seems like they do have one. "Why do they do...." "Why don't they just stop xyz...?". Not just limited to drugs, but to many other behaviours that may seem inappropriate or "illogical" to those not walking in the same shoes, so to speak. People do many things they would like not to do... they just can't...

I'm deeply convinced that it is just a result of several very lucky coincidences that I'm not a wrecked drug addict myself. I would have just the right personality structure to be one. I'm afraid that with one step on that drug road, no matter how harmless, I could end up where the Krokodile users are.  :uhoh
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2011, 09:08:35 AM »

That would indeed be an outcome I can imagine

Apart from any imminent questions about morality...

Genetics are very complex, end the results of genes in action are even more so. In many cases, there is no simple "switch" do shut one thing off and on. Genes are interacting in may ways and affecting very different things.
Assumed this is possible at all: If we "eliminate" (sorry, I'm still very uncomfortable with such expressions considering my national history)  all humans with those genetics that prompt them to drink, we may also lose some genetic traits that have a totally different hidden (?) function or "benefit" for the species in another area.



----------------


This thread made me also ponder some thoughts about that thing called "free will" again, one pet peeve of mine. I have very contradicting views / opinions on that matter: I am a believer and proponent of the concept "Everyone is responsible or has to assume responsibility for his own life and actions". Yet I am fully aware that many people don't have that choice, even it it seems like they do have one. "Why do they do...." "Why don't they just stop xyz...?". Not just limited to drugs, but to many other behaviours that may seem inappropriate or "illogical" to those not walking in the same shoes, so to speak. People do many things they would like not to do... they just can't...

I'm deeply convinced that it is just a result of several very lucky coincidences that I'm not a wrecked drug addict myself. I would have just the right personality structure to be one. I'm afraid that with one step on that drug road, no matter how harmless, I could end up where the Krokodile users are.  :uhoh



 I definitely agree with your top paragraph. Although it may be difficult as it has been hard coaded into your mind to avoid saying things like 'eliminate', please don't feel uncomfortable around me for one. We cannot blame present day Germans for that part of history anymore than blame present day English for slavery or empire building or many of the other crimes all cultures and races commit. To even have a debate of this nature we must be seperated from morality and a person's national history has no bearing on how freely they may speak. This is because we are speaking about 'what might happen' not 'what we believe is right'.

 I am the same as you. Geneticaly I am an addict. It works both ways. When I find a hobby or pursuit I enjoy and want to get good at, I devote myself to it as an addict to become as proficient at what I want to do with it as possible. The bad side being I also get addicted to drugs or other negative addictions (love may be one? - hehe) very easily if I love the effect they have on me. I have beaten a few negative addictions and I think if we are to assume genetics are in play then I would suggest my mother's side of the family, rife with drunks and addicts, are where I get my addictive personality from...but also my passion for hobbies and life in general. My father's side is far more rational and that is where I find the strength to cease my negative addictions.
 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:11:37 AM by mechanic »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2011, 09:24:48 AM »
I definitely agree with your top paragraph. Although it may be difficult as it has been hard coaded into your mind to avoid saying things like 'eliminate', please don't feel uncomfortable around me for one. We cannot blame present day Germans for that part of history anymore than blame present day English for slavery or empire building or many of the other crimes all cultures and races commit. To even have a debate of this nature we must be seperated from morality and a person's national history has no bearing on how freely they may speak. This is because we are speaking about 'what might happen' not 'what we believe is right'.


Just to clarify, I meant it in a way that I just may have are greater sensibility to such terms in general as I have naturally have been exposed to more debates, research  (and affected people!) about eugenics and similar topics - and not because I'm a German myself.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2011, 10:11:25 AM »
I am the same as you. Geneticaly I am an addict. It works both ways. When I find a hobby or pursuit I enjoy and want to get good at, I devote myself to it as an addict to become as proficient at what I want to do with it as possible. The bad side being I also get addicted to drugs or other negative addictions (love may be one? - hehe) very easily if I love the effect they have on me. I have beaten a few negative addictions and I think if we are to assume genetics are in play then I would suggest my mother's side of the family, rife with drunks and addicts, are where I get my addictive personality from...but also my passion for hobbies and life in general.  


I think very are very much different, almost as different as possible. ;)
You characterization reads more like a "live fast", full of power, energy and utmost enthusiasm, which just is being in danger of not being put into the "right thing". In terms of drugs, it may be more a "cool, lets try this!" attitude.
I'm hard pressed to imagine anything more opposite than me. Hard drugs would find a very weak victim in me, one that would use looking for another kick but to escape reality... maybe that's one of the reasons why I can relate to those Krokodil users with that dulled look in their eyes...

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Real Life Zombies in Russia
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2011, 10:20:33 AM »
Hmm ok, interesting.

Would you agree that addictive personalities don't have to concern just negative addicitions?
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