Author Topic: Talk to me about 109s  (Read 2292 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #60 on: November 29, 2011, 02:59:23 PM »
Well I know that, and you know that... but the MA masses don't!

Offline uptown

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #61 on: November 29, 2011, 03:01:29 PM »
WideWing has done got me all excited  :x

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Offline Debrody

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #62 on: November 29, 2011, 03:20:47 PM »
What Widewing said. The F is able to scissor with anything in game except the zero models and the brewster. Especially with less than 50% fuel, real fun. Not a world-beater in the flat turn tho, take care with that.
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« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 03:24:34 PM by Debrody »
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Offline BiPoLaR

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #63 on: November 29, 2011, 03:39:41 PM »
G14 K4 or G6. All the 109s are great birds. Kind of makes me want to come back and auger a few.
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Offline Vinkman

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #64 on: November 29, 2011, 04:12:40 PM »
I like the 20mm package on the G14 rather then the 30mms. Figured the gondies would be ok for GVs..but don't know. Under 10K and fairly slow is where I'll have to be until I get the flight characteristics down good.
I was really expecting everyone to tell me the G6 was the way to go.  :lol I'm glad the G14 was mentioned first actually. Always liked it for some reason. I guess because you don't see all that many guys in them.

Uptown, the 109 is a very fun plane to learn. It's become my favorite. Some of my thoughts and tips...

All 109 compress in a dive. Not as bad as P-38, but bad. Augering one is easy in the beginning, especially if you're used to flying P-47, P-51, F4Us, F6fs, etc...all of which have no real problems pulling out of a dive. The G-14 is noticebly worse in a dive than a K4. I fly K4s a lot, and eveytime I get in a G-14 I managed to fly one into the ground. Because of this, 109 are not always at an advantage when coming in too high above a target. It's very easy to overshoot in a dive. Tip: Ride the rudder, and chop throttle on the way down to control the speed to 400mph or below. Because of the need to do this, 109s bleed a lot of E when diving. Chasing F4U or other planes to the deck should be avoided as they can handle the speed and turn it back into alt when they pull up. A chasing 109 will either hit the ground, or have to bleed to much (to maintain control) to stay with them when they pull up, so they will have an e advantage after the pull out. Also if you manage to stay in control it will be limited as you get close and pass 450mph. They will pull up in front of you and you won't be able to follow due to the unresponsive controls [it feels like your flying with one elevator, or a half an elevator].  This makes for an easy reversal for the bandit, as he rolls the plane and drops back onto your six.

Because of this, and the great climb rate, 109 are best getting in fights with planes that close co-alt or even slightly above them. They turn well and like American Planes have very useful flaps with 5 settings. The roll rate is also very good. The 109 maneuvers best in vertical, meaning keep it's nose pointed above the horizon. When you can, reverse by going up and over, and high yo-yoing, not making flat turns around the corner. Very few planes (other than the P-38) can hang for long with a 109 when it's nose up and changing direction. So the best way to dog fight a 109 is agressive early maneuvers to get your opponents to bleed E by turning and reversing. I find it to be an excellent plane at Rolling scissors. When e states are low, start working vertical.  Then play the angles to avoid their gun solution while you use its tremendous power to weight, and climb advantage to work yourself back into an e advantage. Use the flaps to turn tight at stall speed for close range <300 yds crossing shots.  This is where taters earn their reputation.

Get good with the taters. They are the definitive gun in the 109. The 20mm does not have enough firepower for snap shots so you will be forced to saddle up bandits and match course long enough to hit them with enough rounds from a lone 20mm to kill them. This is fine in 1v1 battles but leads to lots of assissts and getting picked in the MA furball culture.  The 30mm is the most devistating gun n the game. A 1 second burst burps out 5-7 rounds, only one of which is required to down the vast majority of fighters. The 30mm is also great at de-acking a field. A tater or two in the dirt circle around a field gun will destroy it. No need to use hose it, or hit the gun itself like you have to do with .50 cal. You can take down 10 field guns with 65 rounds.

I avoid trying to saddle up planes in a 109 because the plane and 30mm are so good at setting up, and scoring victories on close range crossing shots. But The 109 can saddle most American planes and stay with them. Spits and other turny birds become a problem. From the six position, taters are best held until you know you're going to land them. chasing bandits around firing taters at them is not the best use of taters imo. This is often why people complain about not be able to land them. 109s turn OK, but it's tough to pull enough lead from the six position, in a tight turn fight to land a tater, because of poor ballistics. Use the two 12.7mm in these situation. You may get lucky enough with them to cause enough damage to get a victory, but what really happens is the sustained hits will usually cause the bandit to reverse, right into an easy gun solution for 1 second tater burst on the cross over. Boom.

So always have two triggers set up. One for the 12.7mm, and one for 30mm. Use each when appropriate.

As for drop tanks... The 109 is sluggish on 100% fuel, but it doesn't carry a lot of fuel. You will burn 25% on climbout going to a base 1 sector away. So if you think your going to run into bandits on the way, take a drop tank. I alway take a drop tank and 50%.  The drop tank is big and provides a ton of range. But it's heavy and adds a lot of drag to the plane so expect climb to be cut to about 3K/min. Then when bandits show up, drop it and your light for fighting, with about 15-17 minutes of mil-wep power. A K4 can run WEP for >25% of it's fuel load. It may actually be closer to half. So there's no need to use it conservatively. If you run out of gas a 109 has great glide characteristics. Nose it down, feather the prop, and set angle-mode auto-pilot for a descent rate of 1k/min, and a 109 will glide at 150-200pmh. So from 7K, you can glide for 7 minutes at an average speed of 175mph. That's 17+ miles.  I've landed many a dead stick 109 from a long way off.

Happy hunting.  :salute

« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 04:32:17 PM by Vinkman »
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2011, 05:14:12 PM »
109's are incredibly fun to fly. I have no clue what I'm doing when I climb in, I can't see anything and what do all the gauges mean?! But it's a thrill every time, I can't describe it, it's difficulties make the challenge beg to be met! Getting into a knife fight in a 109 is among the most exciting experiences I have when I play this game.

The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game.  Learn it, master it, love it.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2011, 05:19:06 PM »
The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game.  Learn it, master it, love it.

I have to admit, for me it's the most ignored instrument of them all. I never ever have actually used it beyond the initial "wuts this?" moment  :lol
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2011, 05:20:52 PM »
Wow, there's alot of information here so far. I have to say, you guys have peaked my interest in the 109F especially after going a few with Agent360s 109F in the DA this morning..It was quite a surprising little plane to say the least. Definitely a sleeper just begging for a turn fight  :joystick: Really looking forward to see what it can do against some of the Spits and KIs down low and real slow.  :t

Late uninvited guests will frequently crash your party, otherwise it'll keep going usualy until you say so (or your dancing partner gives up and runs home).  Keep SA up so you don't get roped and doped constantly out of good fights.  People will see you knife fighting and think "a low, slow, and unwary late-model 109" and dive straight for a pick.
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Offline Seanaldinho

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2011, 05:21:43 PM »
The Luft ball and needle is my favorite single guage for flight in the game.  Learn it, master it, love it.

The turn coordinator?


Online Shane

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2011, 05:29:48 PM »
I wept when they took the gondies off the Franz.

I like the 109 series - they're a match up for any contemporary opponent. I've spent my share of time in them, and for *me* their biggest drawback is the ammo load, so I'll as often as not take gondies - and I don't hunt buffs.  :joystick:
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2011, 05:45:04 PM »
I have to admit, for me it's the most ignored instrument of them all. I never ever have actually used it beyond the initial "wuts this?" moment  :lol

So did I until I started getting into stall fighting in 190s, especially crucial was it over a year ago when I first seriously picked up the 152 for a MA tour.  At times in flight, on the edge of a stall, most of the time I can anticiapte and "feel" what the plane is doing and what/where is wants to do.  But, since this is a virtual simulation, that gut feeling is far from ideal.  Often at times, I'm not sure of where the state of the aircraft is at, either completley or partialy - so I just think I am OK and confident in that.  One quick glance, and I'm assured "OK, I'm on/slipping/off, I can/have-to X because I can/can't do Y...".

It's also very helpful for high-altitude work, as one wide bank turn can suck up a lot more energy than another similar wide banking turn.
-Babalon
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2011, 05:49:17 PM »
The turn coordinator?



The turn bank coordinator (? - not positive) - yes.  Although most people I know refer to all such devices as "ball and needle".  The german version in-game differs from most the others with a yaw-indicator(?), I believe.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Seanaldinho

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #72 on: November 29, 2011, 05:52:34 PM »
The turn bank coordinator (? - not positive) - yes.  Although most people I know refer to all such devices as "ball and needle".  The german version in-game differs from most the others with a yaw-indicator(?), I believe.

Yes thats what I meant. Ok wasnt sure had never heard of it referred to as that. I havent spent alot of time in 109's but will look closer next time.

Thank ya sir! :salute

Offline SPKmes

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #73 on: November 29, 2011, 06:10:56 PM »
I like this thread...I had some questions myself but they have been answered within...bring on the new year  WOOP WOOP !!!!

Offline Krusty

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Re: Talk to me about 109s
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2011, 06:21:09 PM »
I wept when they took the gondies off the Franz.

For me it was the bomb rack I miss most. Gondolas I can understand, but the bomb? Even F-2s were running bombs and F-4s as well. JG2 was running them across the channel to bomb the UK to draw out fighters, then engaging with fighters when they upped. Kind of like a reverse "Circus" that the RAF flew over France.

I even skinned one of those planes (10/JG2) and IMO I always liked the history behind it. I miss those bombs. Wish they'd bring them back.