A different system for base capture.

[Tank-Ace]

Juggler, by "make the fighting as one-sided as possibly" I mean "make the fighting (over whatever their goal is) as one-sided as possible". Kind of implyed..... but whatever.


And you're missing the point. Its VERY difficult to capture a base with only a few people. Usually you're spotted and you become outnumbered. However, if capturing bases is your goal, the current system actually REWARDS hording, rather than skill. Your system would only further encourage hording, since it would be nearly impossible to capture a base with just a few people, since 3 people can re-capture it easier than you did.


However, making the bases EASIER to capture, to the point where 3-4 man captures instead of being very uncommon and hard to do, are just a challenge, would give people that OPTION you are talking about.

They could CHOOSE to horde, but it wouldn't give them any real benefit over being smart and skilled.


Your suggestion: hording encouraged, choice is still there, but 3-4 man captures are INCREDIBLY difficult

My suggestion: Hording/3-4 man captures equally encouraged, choice left to the players

[uptown]

Wow! I'm glad I came back to this. This is interesting stuff and could probably work. But what makes you think HTC will completely change the game play?
Not trying to burst ur bubble...just saying. 

[guncrasher]

but that is the exception not the rule.  may of us have taken bases with just a handful of people.  and before the new 75% town rule it wasnt uncommon for 1 or 2 people to take a base.


semp

Face Palm

chili relax before you go on making something out of nothing.  it's the same as saying many of us have killed  xxx player 1v1.

and if you are worried about the spelling error, well thank the auto correction  .


semp

[Chilli]

Unless you were being sarcastic (I hope  ), why say it? _{Just noticed the spelling, see how the eye relays incorrect information to the beholder.}

I am relaxed, but the constant misinformation about how a couple of folks capture bases all the time, is adding to the do nothing approach taken by the designers.  More folks should be standing up and relaying to HTC the reallity that the scope of the hordes has gone to a new level.  Hordes have been discussed since the onset of AH2 at least.  The real truth of the matter is, that today's hordes cannot be reigned in without the intervention of the game designers.  Whereas hordes from pre - new town make over, were balanced by the ease of capture for smaller groups.

Check the date on this post below.   Ten years ago Hangtime pretty well covers the reasons why the hordes exist.

The other night I had an opportunity to run a variety of attack profiles under varying conditions and those; compiled with dozens of others run over the course of the past few weeks have lead me to an inescapable conclusion… The bish truly are ravening dogs that attack with ferocity and tenacity.. but without much disposition towards little details like goon support or attack element survival.

Typical Bish Assault:  Everybody follows everybody else “over dis way..” ..some have ords; most don’t; none have much of a plan in mind other than ‘gonna kill them knits’ or ‘wait till them ugly assed rooks see THIS’. When critical mass over the target area is reached (approx ¼ to 1/3 of total bish population) and after about half of those have been shot down (and come back twice) the announcement goes out “send goon”. Of course; by this time 6 goon drivers have already met their makers and are understandably less than enthusiastic about another useless attempt in that madhouse…

Enter FAST ATTACK. An organized plan of assault whereby the Mission Planner is employed, pilots are briefed as to targets; routes; the order of battle, ordnance to be employed and individual areas of responsibility.

Now normally; FAST ATTACK relies on overlapping areas of responsibility and mutual support across the various elements of the attack force.  It’s usually comprised of Med buffs; C47’s and their JABO fighter escorts and whenever possible, a ‘light’ fighter sweep is dispatched in advance to clear the airspace over the target area.

Basically, the plan calls for the JABO/Escorts to move into the contested airspace over the target and force down or destroy any aircraft at altitudes that represent a threat to the buffs, which arrive shortly after the JABO Escorts do. The JABO Escorts are NOT expected to attack ANYTHING ground based till the buffs have closed the hangers and popped the acks down. (This takes less than 3 minutes for 4 B26’s) Once the Buffs have  knocked down the acks and hopefully the hangers;  THEN the Escort/JABO’s are brought in to deal with any armor on the field or run cleanup on hangers missed due to losses in the buff force. It goes without saying that the buffs first target on that field is the VH.  A JABO destroyed by ack while he downs a hanger a buff will nail anyway within 2 minutes is a wasted death. That pilot accomplised nothing that the buff assets dispatched to that field would not obtain.. and in dying the JABO pilot has added to the risk of failure of the attack via weakening of the combat cap OVER the field.

The idea here is to have the JABO Escorts keep as much of the attack force (and it’s c47’s) alive as possible, for as long as possible. It must be mentioned that killing any enemy fighters or GV’s prior to destruction of the hangers is a guarantee that that freshly dead defending pilot does 2 things.. ONE.. Holler fer help on his country channel (BISH HITTING A24!!  HELP!!) and TWO: immediately Re-Up from the field… from which vantage point  he will no doubt immediately spot the low dots on the horizon… the GOONS. Of course.. we have all seen how that attack goes… the first wave of goons die, and even though the field is eventually closed; by the time the goons get back; the enemy has brought in help from neighboring fields, has caught the attackers low strafing the fuel tanks, ammo bins and various other field infrastructure that  we should really  keep intact for our own use after its (hopefully) eventual capture.  Even worse, since the attackers are now low; they are unable to cap or screen for the low goons that are just then making their low runs in to drop troops. Results are usually the same.. one or two arriving defenders from another field drop down on the goons; kill them and then pick off the attackers that remain while more reinforcements arrive to help mop up the shattered remnants of the original attack force. The fields a ‘bust’, no soap, no capture.

Ok; now, so that you might get a little better understanding of where the biggest problems lie; consider first the job of the escort JABO fighters associated with the main attack force. Their job in NO WAY entails any attack upon the field assets until the Buffs have finished the hangers and the acks. Let the buffs deal with the main field assets and defenses. ONLY AFTER the hangers and acks are down should the JABO’s go to work.. up to that point they should be at intermediate altitude providing coverage and defense of the airspace needed by the buffs or dealing with any threat to the goon force.. Again.. attack NOTHING unless it’s a threat; an IMMEDIATE threat to the buffs or goons. Remember WHAT that pilot will do if you shoot him down too soon…  he’ll re-up AFTER he hollers fer help; advertise the goons location and come right back on the deck to kill it. Better you keep him interested.. but don’t attack him till you have to. Once the acks and hangers are down; the JABO’s go in and clean up any low defending air assetts THEN the defending armor forces, THEN RE-GRAB AND SET COMBAT AIR PATROL OVER THAT BASE!! Screen toward the closest enemy field.. where the defenders are likely scrambling to bust up the attack.. intercept them well BEFORE they get to the contested field.. DO NOT MINDLESSLEY CIRCLE OVER THE FIELD AT 1000 FEET AFTER YER ORDNANCE IS GONE.. if you have only .50 cal ammo left you ain’t gonna kill any armor.. SWEEP TOWARDS THE NEXT CLOESET ENEMY FIELD!

The Goons.. all too often; our brave and intrepid goon driver suffers an attack of impatientius, and dashes into the attacked field while it still has live on site defenders thus attracting the immediate and deadly attention of every enemy fighter in three girds around. Hold yer horses.. and the drunks, up short of dot range on the field. I can’t stress this strongly enuff… if you can see their dots THEY CAN SEE YOURS! Stay outta dot range, wait till you receive the call to come in. Remember, one maxim known instinctively by every pilot with guns in this sim. LOW DOT = GOON = EASY KILL = FIELD SECUITY. Stay smart.. stay alive.. don’t be where they are gonna look for you.

Now that you know what goes wrong.. here's how we do it RIGHT.  Two B26's or JU88's are detailed and armed for acks, two more are detailed and armed for hangers. The JABO force consistis of heavy fighters armed with 1k eggs and rockets. The goon force is 2 or more C47's; and they are dispatched on a diffrent course with a final IP that is NOT on the target field. The JABO's transit ahead of the buffs; and once over the target field they DO NOT attack it; but instead, CAP it. The buffs arrive within 2 minutes of the JABO's and proceed to take down the acks and hangers.. this takes two passes, at most three.. 3 to 4 1/2 minutes tops. Once acks and hangers are down; JABO's are free to engage low assetts and enemy armor. B26's re-route to the GOONS IP, descened and proceed with goons back toward the target. By this time; the JABO's will have dispatched any remaining armor on the field, sounded the all clear for the goons to approach and be RE-GRABBING to establish hi-cap over the field; with some elements from the JABO force sweeping towards the next closest enemy field for intercept of interlopers.

Simple, enh?? It should be.. and when we do it like this it goes fast and easy.. the field is overwhelmed before it can muster adequite defensive assets, the goons approach unopposed, the capture goes down without a hiccup.

Sadly; merely because most guys flying the JABO section don't understand the concept of "HOLD, CAP; COVER THE BUFFS AND GOONS" they instead see a low no-threat defender attempting to grab up towards the out-of-reach buffs, they ALL go in and attack it, or worse; die gloriously but uselessly attacking hangers or acks that would be destroyed in a few minutes anyway without risk.

The FAST ATTACK mission profile is intended to gain the strategic target being attacked WITH MINIMUM RISK AND LOSSES to the attacking force while delivering OVERWHELMING DAMAGE TO THE TARGET. If any elemet fails to do it's job; the enitire force is weakened unneccesairly and all elements are put at extreme risk.
In essence.. do it smart; get kills, get the objective; do not die. Screw up; all are at risk; most die; no objective obtained.. and mayhem ensues..

Comments??

Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"

[guncrasher]

Unless you were being sarcastic (I hope  ), why say it? _{Just noticed the spelling, see how the eye relays incorrect information to the beholder.}

I am relaxed, but the constant misinformation about how a couple of folks capture bases all the time, is adding to the do nothing approach taken by the designers.  More folks should be standing up and relaying to HTC the reallity that the scope of the hordes has gone to a new level.  Hordes have been discussed since the onset of AH2 at least.  The real truth of the matter is, that today's hordes cannot be reigned in without the intervention of the game designers.  Whereas hordes from pre - new town make over, were balanced by the ease of capture for smaller groups.

Check the date on this post below.   Ten years ago Hangtime pretty well covers the reasons why the hordes exist.

nobody said that a couple of guys capture bases all the time.  i was just replying to tank ace who indicated that him and 7 guys captured a base.  I mentioned that it has been done many times but capturing bases with only a handful of players is the exception, not the rule.

but to be honest I started playing about 5 years ago.  I started as a rook and there was a rook who would call out mission and we would just take base after base.  I remember the ltars rolling bases the same way quite often and many other squads did the same thing.  hordes the way we have today are not really any different that last year or 5 years ago, the only thing that has changed is who organizes them. 

it seems everybody mentions the vtards more often now and they dont really bring any more players than what we used 5 years ago when I was a rook.  the only change to the game play I have never seen in the years playing here is a  horde crash diving into the hangars over and over like the vtards do.  that is the only thing I see different today than it was 5 years ago.

semp

[Chilli]

Thanks Semp for clearing that up for me.     I am pretty certain that you and I have both taken bases together and opposing each other.  Game recognizes game.  I can slip a goon right to the back steps of a town that is swarmed by defenders and have many times, I have seen you be just as slick, and sometimes we are the ones that either foil the other's attempt or sometimes we are there to help git r dun.  So, yes we all can agree that bases can still be taken against overwhelming odds.  The problem is that in the time it takes, a horde has already taken 3 or 4 bases easily.  This is where I agree with the OP that changing the game has merit.

The rolling of bases is not as much of a concern, as the loss in alternatives.

HERE IS THE BIG POINT:  The total number of players 5 years ago was greater.  Compounding the smaller number of available online players as a whole, is the disproportionate loss in Euro / Off Hours players.  What we have left is players logging on to find something interesting to do, and not able to find a manageable sized fight, they either join in or log off.  The more folks that have active subscriptions that log off, the more that will eventually log off... this is the leming effect that Lusche has referred to.  I wouldn't mind this as much if they logged into other areas such as custom arenas, WW1, etc.  But no, after 10 years the shine has worn off the horde, errrr.... I mean fast base take.

[JUGgler]

And you're missing the point. Its VERY difficult to capture a base with only a few people. Usually you're spotted and you become outnumbered. However, if capturing bases isonly further encourage hording, since it would be nearly impossible to capture a base with just a few people, since 3 people can re-capture it easier than you did.

Well I disagree with your premis that the retake would be easier simply cause the town and base remain impotent with my idea. Give this a bit more thought please. You see the retake still requires the retakers to get 10 troops in the maproom in the face of folks who just got 10 troops in themselves. This is sure to be faaaar more difficult than you think IMHO.

Look, I'll try to explain how a mission may look with my idea.

 say I post a mission to take a base, the target base has 2 enemy bases within 1 sector of it. Now when I fill my mission with vehicles I will have to take into account the potential counter attackers from these two other bases, so when choosing my vehicles I will prepare for this. I might choose 20 ponies with 75% and drops to do nothing more than interdict the air space between the target base and these 2 adjacent bases. I would bet some squads would be all over these opportunities to inderdict incoming counter attackers, I bet the pigs for one would be all over this. I would choose bombers to crush the base and town, a couple goons ( maybe a reserve goon) just in case a counter attack succeeds at getting troops in the maproom my mission is about to own, heavy fighters to finish off town and perform local cap, vehicles (if possible) to support by land the attack and to defend against incoming enemy vehicles. The initial take would be little different than it is now with compitent folks who have experience in base captures, but it is at this moment that all hell breaks loose and the fight heats up drawing more and more resources and interested folks to the party.

 With all this going on, just how easy do you think the counter attackers will have it? It will be very difficult for them unless the original attackers just go away after they get troops in and if this happens they don't deserve the base in the 1st plase.

 Now on the other side, they will see the attack and prepare, some would still up at the target base suffering vulch and pick hell, others would up fromadjacent (maybe even create a counter mission) bases for the counter strike, this is where things really would start to heat up as everyone involved would be aware of the timetable involved and would be pressing for the "common" objective.

 I actually agree with you that the original attackers should enjoy a slightly easier time, that is why I suggested returning the radar alt to 200' allowing some covert/sneaky stuff to happen once again.

 I would actually support maybe less % of town to be destroyed and maybe even less troop requirement for the initial attackers, I would hold the line for the counter attackers at 10 troops.



JUGgler

[JUGgler]

Wow! I'm glad I came back to this. This is interesting stuff and could probably work. But what makes you think HTC will completely change the game play?
Not trying to burst ur bubble...just saying. 

 I don't expect them to do anything, this is just a suggestion although I will say HTC has proven itself to make changes in gameplay before. I'm sure they pay close attention to the wishlist, what business owner who owns such a product wouldn't?

I will tell you a recent story that falls along these lines.

 My wife and I frequent a local sushi restaurant a couple times a month, their product is excellent, service is great and it is entertaining and clean. They did have one problem for us and that is their fountain coke, you see my wife enjoys a coke now and then and usualy with sushi, I enjoy the green tea and beer. Now she has always been disappointed about it yet too nice to say anything about it. So we were there a couple weeks ago and for some reason I decided I wanted a coke, and when recieved I also thought it was flat. We finished and were leaving so I took the owner asside and explained to him I thought his coke sucked and didn't have the same hi standard of the rest of his restaurant. We left I really didn't think anything would come of it. We went back a couple nights ago, the waitress asked drinks? I said beer and tea, the wife said coke, she replied in return fountain or can?  FIXED and happy!

A simple unrelated example of businesses altering their service to make customers happier and willing to return and spend more $  a win win in my book!

 



JUGgler

[Tank-Ace]

Again, you miss what I'm saying. Hording will be INCREASED, because without a large CAP in place, you have no means of preventing those 10 troops from going into the maproom.


So what you will see in missions with your idea is:

Strike force, current size, perhaps larger emphasis on strike-aircraft, as the fighters designated to defend can also act as escort
Defense force, primarily mid-long-ish ranged fighters with 50%, or short-mid ranged fighters with 100% fuel and DT.


I was simply saying that WITHOUT the EXTRA mass to the horde, the base will be incredibly easy to re-take.

[JUGgler]

Again, you miss what I'm saying. Hording will be INCREASED, because without a large CAP in place, you have no means of preventing those 10 troops from going into the maproom.


So what you will see in missions with your idea is:

Strike force, current size, perhaps larger emphasis on strike-aircraft, as the fighters designated to defend can also act as escort
Defense force, primarily mid-long-ish ranged fighters with 50%, or short-mid ranged fighters with 100% fuel and DT.


I was simply saying that WITHOUT the EXTRA mass to the horde, the base will be incredibly easy to re-take.

I'm trying to understand you here, so let me say YOU think the "retakers" will merely respond with a large horde and simply slide the troops in cause "with my idea" they won't have to drop the town!  Is this correct?


I'll assume I'm correct and respond: Assuming the retake goes as easy as the initial capture then I would agree with you BUT the initial capture should have planned to defend their potential prize and thus they should be defending it if they want to keep it!

My idea of keeping all ack and buildings down is a way to encourage folks to try and retake it. I believe currently the reason you never see anyone try to immediately counter attack a captured base is cause there is no organization to the defenders and they would have to destroy all ack and fight thru the new defenders who are upping at the base they just captured.With my idea the counter attackers would think they might actually "with some effort" be able to retake the base. Now mind you just cause the counter attackers "might" be able to get 10 troops back in the map room to reset it doesn't mean they own it, the timer is still in effect and their troops now have to cook in the maproom! You see it could become a back and forth  struggle until someone finally gives in! Then you'd have an actual winner and loser, not as it is now the "winners" almost always win cause no-one realy wants to be vulched time and again just to try and defend something you can't defend by taking off from the base that is being horded!


I would be fine with letting the buildings pop "at their normal rate" in effect forcing the counter attackers to take in to account some destruction may be required but I am adiment at leaving all base and town ack down and having the base unusable to anyone until someones troops have cooked for the alloted time, this is the only way to encourage the possibility of a counter attack! which would create the fight most in here say they want!
IMHO
 



JUGgler

[hitech]

No one would EEEEVERRRR hide in or near the town ready to release there troops.

HiTech

[Wiley]

My question is, what incentive do the 'retakers' have to attempt to retake a base versus hording another, undefended base elsewhere?

Wiley.

[Chilli]

No one would EEEEVERRRR hide in or near the town ready to release there troops.

HiTech

Sorry Boss,

I have to disagree, that no one would.  Especially, since I have personally seen this done with the vehicle bases now.  Furthermore, I have seen this sort of thing have some success with vehicle bases because all that has to be done is to knock out ack and deliver troops into the maproom.  The probability of this happening with towns is less at the moment due to the need to kill town ack that immediately pops.  The flaw in not having ack popping is that any troops nearby can run in immediately.

My fix to that would be to create 2 new spawns from each side attacker and defender, then allow only troops brought in from another base.

[Tank-Ace]

Sorry Boss,

I have to disagree, that no one would.  Especially, since I have personally seen this done with the vehicle bases now.  Furthermore, I have seen this sort of thing have some success with vehicle bases because all that has to be done is to knock out ack and deliver troops into the maproom.  The probability of this happening with towns is less at the moment due to the need to kill town ack that immediately pops.  The flaw in not having ack popping is that any troops nearby can run in immediately.

My fix to that would be to create 2 new spawns from each side attacker and defender, then allow only troops brought in from another base.

Sarcasm, duh  .

[Chilli]

Sarcasm, duh  .

Vrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr............. ................rrrrrrrrrrrrr eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmm      Right over my head Tank ... thanks for the wake up