How high is too high in a B17?

[Mox]

I was always under the impression that flying a B17 at 35K was a dweeb thing to do in AH.

So how high is too high?

I flew bombers a lot this weekend and never went above 27K because it “seemed” I was untouchable. I had one mission that I flew for close to 2 hours and I never had a single fighter fire on me.

Is it because most fighters cannot climb that high in AH?  I don’t have much experience in fighters above 25K.

Late last night I was chasing a lone Bish buff with Sniper (we were Rooks) for a long time.  Once I was close enough to the buff I realized he had to be around 35K and there was no way either of us could climb that high in a F4.  Sniper and I both told the buff in public to have fun up there and we broke off the chase.  

The buff pilot replied “But you can’t catch me, can you?”.

Opinions?

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Ripsnort]

Apparently, the ceiling seems about right for the B17G model (see stats below), maybe the fighters need some help in this area...I've never been above 30K so my opinion is worthless...


First flight:
                                                July 28, 1935
                                  Model number:
                                                299
                                  Classification:
                                                Bomber
                                  Span:
                                                103 feet 9 inches (B-17G)
                                  Length:
                                                74 feet 9 inches (B-17G)
                                  Gross weight:
                                                65,000 pounds (B-17G)
                                  Top speed:
                                                287 mph (B-17G)
                                  Cruising speed:
                                                150 mph (B-17G)
                                  Range:
                                                3,750 miles (B-17G)
                                  Ceiling:
                                                35,600 feet (B-17G)
                                  Power:
                                                Four 1,200-horsepower Wright R-1820-97
                                                engines (B-17G)
                                  Accommodation:
                                                2 pilots, bombardier, radio-operator, 5 gunners
                                                (B-17G)
                                  Armament:
                                                11 to 13 machine guns, 20,000-pound bomb
                                                load (B-17G)

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
     
"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Kieren]

This is a recurrent thread- works like this:

Since engine overheat, freezing components, and other random calamities are not modeled, the planes all perform in a perfect environment. The B17 benefits the most here because of its turbo engines and generous wing area. Couple that with the laser-accurate bombsight that requires no zeroing in, and no ordinance drift, and you have a weapon that would make Stealth bombers look like slingshots.  

That being said, it also seems to me that fighters cannot approach their theoretical ceilings. This results in B17's that cannot be intercepted above, say, 33K. Interception below that alt is possible IF you happen to be in the right place and IF you can kill in a single pass. Once the B17 gets a little alt and separation, he will walk away from you. Believe it or not, all they have to do is set autoclimb and watch you wallow behind them for an easy kill.

I agree this is not a good situation, and it potentially could upset play balance, but thankfully its abuse doesn't happen all that much.

When I see countries do this, then announce on open channel taunts "haha, we are so good" I just wonder how they would view it if 20 38K buffs ranged over their entire country and bombed their ammo, city, radar, fields- everything- to rubble while they tried vainly to put up some kind of defense. That could happen on any night, every night.

One squad ran a more historic approach to a raid the other night- ran buffs at 25K and had escort. They were successful, none of the defenders complained, and a good time was had by all. Would have ruined it to have brought them in at 35K, wouldn't it?

[Kieren]

Ripsnort-

I've had many fighters up to about 38K, but you could't catch a buff from there if you tried.

BTW, the published ceilings of most of our fighters are 3-5K above the B-17G in most cases. Anyone gotten any fighter to 41K?  

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Kieren:

One squad ran a more historic approach to a raid the other night- ran buffs at 25K and had escort. They were successful, none of the defenders complained, and a good time was had by all. Would have ruined it to have brought them in at 35K, wouldn't it?

Yes it would...

All of the big bomber raids I've been on in The Wrecking Crew have always been about 22K-25K.

I was one of the HQ buffs on that run.  I had one of the best times I've ever had in AH.

I was the third buff to get shot down.  I was heads down on the HQ, dropped my first salvo of 1000lbs and then I lost a wing.  I was fortunate enough to bail out just over the HQ and I got to see a nice show as all the rest of our bombs rained down on it and destroyed it.  I got a nice shot in the bellybutton from the last ack that was standing, but it was a blast.

The Bishop pilot that flew the B17 to 35K last night knows I'm talking about him and I hope he reads this thread and understands that he was exploiting.  

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[gatt]

<S> to those buff pilots who fly at reasonable alt.

Actually its almost impossible to chase buffs at 35K+. I dont know where is the real problem but here is the real danger:

 

... Sniper and I both told the buff in public to have fun up there and we broke off the chase ...

Gatt
4°Stormo CT

[iculus]

I'm not going to comment on the altitude issue, but regarding the B-17's accuracy at high alt in AH:

Historically, heavy bomber raids consisted of 100+ aircraft bombing a single target.  Late in the war, the Luftwaffe was trying to stop raids of 1,200(!) planes.  You can't do this in an online sim. Where would you get all the pilots?

Online sims make up for this with very accurate bombsights (although I would like to see it get a bit more complicated=more fun  ).  This way one plane, or a few planes, can do real damage to a single target.  

So it boils down to:

Say...3 B-17's dropping 18 well placed 1000 pounders in AH.

or....100 B-17's dropping *600* not so accurate 1000 pounders as in real life.

either way the target gets clobbered.  

So here's the trade off for playability:

You either keep the fairly accurate bombsights, or...you take away the accuracy and give a single buff driver control of 50 "drone" B-17's, all of which will fly perfect formation, and will drop on command. (imagine the drop in framerate  )

my two cents  

IC

[This message has been edited by iculus (edited 02-21-2000).]

[Kieren]

The issue isn't so much the accuracy of the bombsights. It's the altitude to which the sights remain accurate. It's the lack of drift on the bombs. It's the lack of clouds to obscure the target.

I'm not trying to criticize HTC for decisions they make WRT features in the game. OTOH I do think Mox makes a good point, and ultrahigh buffs are not the answer to playability issues regarding their use.

Besides, haven't the B26's proved very capable of hitting targets despite a much lower ceiling? It is much tougher to bring down a B17 at the same alt.   They don't have to be 35K to be successful.

[Duckwing6]

same thing Kieren... guess he would fly lower if he had:

A.) 100 Wingies putting up 13 cal.50's each
B.) a fighter escort of 40 +

I see the Buffers point... if you have to fly alone .. go high (dan't like it either tho..)

------------------

Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

[Kieren]

of course you go high, the point is how high should be possible?

If it becomes standard practice to go 35K, why would the buffs need any escort? What could stop them? Yes, it should be hard to reach buffs, but not impossible.

Go ahead and let them fly that high. Factor in random bomb inaccuracy and it will keep two bombers from destroying HQ and Ammo for a whole country from sub-orbital heights. They will be forced down to more historically realistic altitudes, and would need escort for such a strike.

Another way to put it is this; what chance would two lone B17's have deep over enemy territory in WWII?

[indian]

put in natural looking haze below the bombers so they have to come down to see to hit anything, this would solve everything.

------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
  Cherokee Indian
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage

[iculus]

Good point...there should be some "ceiling" where bombsight accuracy begins to fall off.  Perhaps around 25k or so.  (hmmmm...)

Salute!

IC

[Sorrow[S=A]]

HT allready stated several times that hi altitude bombing would be made severly imprecise n the new update, just be patient guys, they will soon have to choose between accurate and carpet bombing.

------------------
If your in range, so is the enemy.

[Downtown]

My standard is to come in at least 8K above the ack, that gives me accuracy, I usually get one fighter, and he gets me.

The other night I chased a Bish B-17 all the way across Rookland.  He crossed the mountains over F23 and I was already climbing to meet him.  I was in a Nick.  He flew to and bombed F17 and was turning back before I was at alt.  I fed him most of my 20MM and saw white vapor trails (Fuel?)

I then chased him all the way back to f23 with his guns shooting at me ever 5 seconds for darn few hits.

A. I thought there was a limited supply of Ammo.

B. Almost all my 20MM, with many hit sprites apparantley had almost no effect on the performance of his aircraft.

c. I discoed.

How did LW Planes, pretty much designed to catch and kill bombers, and apparently fairly successful at it do it?

I had a very difficult time maintaining alt, though I know a nick may not have been the best choice (I was already airborne.)

We do need a lower ceiling, or bring the fighter ceiling up.  What is to stop someone from flying in at 35K, dropping the 10K alt to bomb and then climbing up and away from danger.

ITMT (In the mean time) I hope the Bishes, who seem to be the most guilty of this unpardonable sin (IMO) rethink their tactics.



------------------
Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
 lkbrown1@tir.com  
 http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!

[Shamus]

Mox, As the Bishop pilot that you are referring to lets set the record straight.

First off i was on a lone wolf mission to the rook city and was at 32k not 35k when you and sniper caught up with me.

Now im not going to misquote you as you have me because to be honest i dont remember exactly what you said over the open channel, but it was closer to who's the lame bellybutton bish B17 over f#, than have a nice day.

I believe my reply to your most cordial comment was "well im still here and got a few pings on u mox"

Your reply was that you were the low one. At that time Sniper in a seemingly good natured way told me that he was the f4u that got close enough to trade shots with me with no damage. I belive i said not suprised u r flying a tank sn, he states it flys like one at 32k. Now at that time my comment was "thats why im up here"

I happened to be flying a 109g10 at 36k last week and had a rook 17 go over top of me but I guess I forgot to whine, and I sure as hell didnt think that a thread was warrented.

Mox i have one word for you "BRAN"

Shamus