Author Topic: Collision Model  (Read 25205 times)

Offline SlapShot

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #285 on: January 05, 2012, 04:34:52 PM »
So, 20% my fault 80% never saw it coming or was unable to do anything about it.

My experiences for the past ten years ... 90% my fault ... 10% never saw it coming or was unable to do anything about it.

The amount of times I actually collide in 1 year does not even rate enough to even think about getting all frothy in the mouth about it and if I was colliding to the point to cause frothing of the mouth ... then I would need to find a new game, because my suckage at this game is probably something that I most likely could never recover from ... I would most likely be ... doomed to eternal suckage.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #286 on: January 05, 2012, 04:35:49 PM »
Probably not a good business move to show some of his customers how "silly" they are being.  (Silly is a BBS-friendly descriptor)

But it's giving them exactly what they asked for.  How is that not good customer service? ;)  I liked the idea better when he proposed a $50 fee each to turn it back to the way it is currently.  That seems fair for the amount of messing around on HT's part it would take, and could provide an additional revenue stream.

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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #287 on: January 05, 2012, 04:37:05 PM »
Probably not a good business move to show some of his customers how "silly" they are being.  (Silly is a BBS-friendly descriptor)

I would think that it would fall into the category of ... give the customer what they want or the customer is always right ... :rofl

If they did feel "silly" (Silly is a BBS-friendly descriptor) ... then they have no one to blame but themselves.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #288 on: January 05, 2012, 04:39:22 PM »
My own personal opinion on collisions is that for ity to occure it shoudl show up as a collision on both ends.
In other words if both sides see a collision then they collided. if only one side sees it then no collision occurred.

I seem to remember HT explaining why this cant or shouldnt be a couple of years ago. And the explanation seemed reasonable.

But still it does only seem fair particularly when I collide with someone behind me while going forward  LOL

What if neither sees a collission but they actually did collide?
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #289 on: January 05, 2012, 05:24:42 PM »
What if neither sees a collission but they actually did collide?

...Are you proposing the game utilize the 'Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal' method of collision detection?

Interesting idea. :)

Wiley.
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Offline SlapShot

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #290 on: January 05, 2012, 05:46:21 PM »
What if neither sees a collission but they actually did collide?

You will hear the sound of a fallen tree? ... :confused:
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #291 on: January 05, 2012, 07:06:14 PM »
But it's giving them exactly what they asked for.  How is that not good customer service? ;)  I liked the idea better when he proposed a $50 fee each to turn it back to the way it is currently.  That seems fair for the amount of messing around on HT's part it would take, and could provide an additional revenue stream.

Wiley.

Technically it is not because if they collided with their opponent on their end they would go down but if he avoided it on his end he would not go down, so they would still not be getting their way.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #292 on: January 05, 2012, 07:42:46 PM »
When you really see other planes warp into your plane all the time.... it's you ;)

... unless its bomber drones and the lead buff just bailed. thats really annoying.  :bhead
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #293 on: January 06, 2012, 06:12:21 PM »
I want at fault plane to go down.  

There is no "at fault" plane.

This is where you need to pay closer attention to the effects of lag and how the collision model is set up.  If you think you can assign blame, than you don't understand the effects of lag very well.

First of all (due to the effects of lag) WHAT YOU SEE IS NOT WHAT THE OTHER GUY SEES.

That means that whoever is at fault on your screen may very well not be at fault on their own screen (if there was even a collision on their end; if there wasn't even a collision on their screen, how could there be an "at fault plane?).

Lag is cumulative between players, so if you're experiencing a 125ms lag and so is your opponent, you're seeing what his airplane does (and where it is) 1/4 second later than it happened.  In 1/4 second his plane will travel over 100 feet at 300mph.  What he sees and what you see are very different. 

You are experiencing two different realities, so it would be unreasonable to expect both of you to see the same thing and have those separate realities agree that something happened at the same time and place in both realities...

You could see him hit your belly, while he sees you hit his tail.  In both cases, it's the other guys "fault".

The computers cannot even agree that an airplane is in the same place at the same time, so how could they possibly refine those positions enough to be able to place blame in a situation where tiny fractions of a second matter an immense amount??

Even if they somehow could, you'd need to write a "rules of the road" to decide which plane is at fault in various situations.  It isn't as simple as deciding who hit who...

Who's at fault in these situations? (I'm not asking which plane should take damage, I'm asking who's at fault).

-You're on auto-climb (an maybe even afk).  You're flying a completely predictable path at a stable speed.  I dive down and pass just in front of you.  As I pass by, your prop hits my belly.  Technically, you hit me...  Are you at fault?

-I'm in your path and have enough speed to maneuver, while you're too slow to change heading but are still coming toward me.  I could get out of your way, but don't (maybe I choose not to?)...  You hit me again.

-You're on auto-climb again...  I dive on you, and on your screen you see me pass cleanly 50ft in front of you.  On my screen, you clip my tail with your prop...  Oops, you hit me again!

-You're turning on the deck with a squadie of mine.  I cannot get into position for a shot on you, but manage (accidentally; I'm a terrible pilot) to pass in front of you so that you hit me from the side...

Who has the "right of way"?  What are the rules of the road?  What if we see the same thing, but cannot agree on who's at fault?  What if we agree that we saw the exact same thing but in reality we didn't?

MtnMan

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #294 on: January 06, 2012, 06:19:19 PM »
The scenerio were a pony dives in on me while I'm turn fighting on the deck rams me and gets oil damage, or a damaged gun, or loses an elevator happens to me every day.  

With this type of frequency, I imagine it would be easy to get it on film?  

I'd like to see it personally, as I cannot for the life of me remember it happening to me frequently enough to get it on film (let alone on a daily basis).

Who's at fault in these situations?  Is it possible that as he comes in he has so much speed that he cannot turn to avoid the collision?  If so, would it be your responsibility to recognize his path and divert to avoid intersecting it?  Or do you have the "right of way"?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 06:22:36 PM by mtnman »
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Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #295 on: January 06, 2012, 07:21:47 PM »


Who's at fault in these situations?  Is it possible that as he comes in he has so much speed that he cannot turn to avoid the collision?  If so, would it be your responsibility to recognize his path and divert to avoid intersecting it?  Or do you have the "right of way"?


You have just proven his argument for him.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #296 on: January 06, 2012, 07:58:05 PM »
What if neither sees a collission but they actually did collide?

There is a long time player that was recently under that impression.  He thought that "if front end sees the collision" meant that he had to physically see the collision for it to happen.  I think FBZodiac finally set DES straight but we all had a good laugh, except DES.

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #297 on: January 06, 2012, 10:19:34 PM »
You have just proven his argument for him.

No, not really.  I put that in there as a trap of sorts to see if he'd read any of the rest.

Of course the answer I expect (which appears to be the one you expect as well) is that he feels he would have the "right of way" in a situation like that so would therefore be "wronged" if someone came in and involved him in a collision (making the person diving in responsible or "at fault").

That's just silliness, of course.  If it were a RL situation an attitude like that would get him killed!  In a situation like that he would of course need to protect himself first and foremost, even if he was already engaged.

First of all, he's fighting someone who's potentially "being rescued" by the person he's about to be involved in the collision with.  The guy coming in should be expected, and should be watched for.  Shooting the guy in front of you is a poor excuse for getting shot by the guy behind you...

Second, diving in faster is going to make the other guy less maneuverable, just as being extra slow would make someone less maneuverable.  It should be expected that someone diving in with excess speed will not be able to divert much from their path (at least not quickly or suddenly) if they're fast (and if they're not fast they have enough control, forethought, and likely skill, to be a low collision risk anyway).  That's a predictable situation, and it shouldn't shock or surprise anyone.

Third, it's a basic, known requirement that to be successful you need to avoid collisions with enemy aircraft, and the landscape.  It doesn't matter one bit what type of aircraft it is, it's speed, altitude, heading, or intent.  It's YOUR responsibility to act to preserve YOURSELF; it's not your opponents responsibility to make sure that you don't get damaged.  

Fourth, regardless of the situation lag will be a factor, so your opponent won't be exactly where he appears, and he won't see things exactly as you do.  That doesn't change just because you're flying a spit, or because you're low and turning while he's fast and diving in.  He may fly past you collision-free on his end (having successfully avoided colliding with HIS opponents) while you take damage because you weren't able to successfully avoid colliding with YOURS.  It's not HIS fault you couldn't or wouldn't protect yourself (or that you never recognized the threat).

Fifth, whether it looks (on your end) like you collided with the other guy, or whether it looks like he collided with you, there's almost no chance in the world that the situation and timing looked identical on his end.  Even if it looks like the other guy dove down and flew right through you, it probably didn't look like that on his end...  Even if both pilots see the same collision, it's unlikely that they'll see it identically.  You saw me hit your tail, I saw you hit my belly...  Neither is at fault, but both are at fault?  Both cases may be true, but neither is possible if the other is true.

Sixth, identifying "fault" is a very vague concept...  What if the pilot diving in flies a very safe path (no threat of a collision, although he'll pass very near his opponent), but with enough speed that he's pretty locked into maintaining course and zooming on through.  Then, at the last second the lower/slower guy changes heading and diverts right into the path of the guy diving in.  The guy diving in hits the slower plane, but only because the lower guy diverted his path and placed himself in danger (not necessarily on purpose either; maybe a stall dropped a wing suddenly, etc).  Who's at fault?  Not the fast guy with the stable, predictable flightpath, but also not necessarily the guy who diverted into his path.

When it comes to collisions between opponents, the only real way to lay blame is to have a "right of way" rule that says that one player has a higher "right" to a location in space (and time) than the other.  It would need to be a set of "rules" very similar to traffic rules where everyone is trained to know who has the right of way and who is required to yield...  And of course that wouldn't work in a situation where we're shooting at each other...  Would it be the high guy that must yield to the low guy?  Or the slow guy?  Or the guy on the right?  Or the guy in the xyz plane?  Or the guy pointing closest to due north?  Must the more maneuverable guy yield to the less maneuverable?

If nobody has the right of way, then nobody is required to yield.  So who's at fault?

In the end, you really cannot assign fault.  If I dive past you (but miss you cleanly on my end) how can it be my "fault" if you see a collision and die on your end?  I flew fine and succeeded in avoiding a collision (even if I was fast and you were slow); you didn't.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2012, 10:26:25 PM by mtnman »
MtnMan

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Offline hitech

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #298 on: January 06, 2012, 10:33:32 PM »
mtnman:I agree with you,I  got you and  hoppers arguments backwards for a sec, Thought hopper made  first long post about no fault, not you.

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Offline Ardy123

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Re: Collision Model
« Reply #299 on: January 06, 2012, 10:40:18 PM »
There is no "at fault" plane.

Thats not what the cartoon plane insurance co said.... :bolt:
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