Collision Model

[MK-84]

another case study scenario...

i get chased by someone... i am flying 800 infront of him... and i decide to go vertical to lure him up for friendlies to finish him off...he follows me up... i forget at the moment that he has a more superior climb rate than my aircraft...i maintain a straight and steady steady climb, i have maybe 100 more knots before i stall...and he closes in behind me rapidly 400, 200, ... i dun ever bother to struggle to roll or turn...i close my eyes in disappointment in my stupid tactic and the next thing i know when i open my eyes... i get a collision msg... and i miss a wing, and engine oil... he collided into me but i got the msg... i found out later that he had run out of bullets, and decided to ram me...

these are the descrepancies that happened many times to me....

Did he say he tried to ram you?  How do you know?

Regardless he missed on his end, but your aircraft on your end did not.  You explained it yourself perfectly, you said you messed up.

So I do not understand where the problem lies.

 

[Dead Man Flying]

he collided into me but i got the msg... i found out later that he had run out of bullets, and decided to ram me...

He didn't collide with you.  You collided with him.  On his front end, he may have attempted to ram you, but he missed.  Had he not missed, he would have received a collision message on his end.

This has been spelled out to you in literally dozens of ways in this thread, not least of all by the creators of the game itself.  I'm unsure why you persist in arguing an obviously flawed point.

[des506]

another case study scenario...

i get chased by someone... i am flying 800 infront of him... and i decide to go vertical to lure him up for friendlies to finish him off...he follows me up... i forget at the moment that he has a more superior climb rate than my aircraft...i maintain a straight and steady steady climb, i have maybe 100 more knots before i stall...and he closes in behind me rapidly 400, 200, ... i dun ever bother to struggle to roll or turn...i close my eyes in disappointment in my stupid tactic and the next thing i know i hear a strange bang( not the expected gunfire sound) when i open my eyes... i  saw that i got a collision msg... and i miss a wing, and engine oil... he collided into me but i got the msg.. and he flies home with a free kill( no doubt he deserves the kill for getting me into this sorry predictcament, not sure if he was awarded perkies or not although i think he did... the system basically gave him that kill)... i found out later that he had run out of bullets, and decided to ram me...he was def not trying to avoid me thats for sure.

these are the descrepancies that happened many times to me....

so when you try to relate that to what you guys are saying about that my computer sees, it is definately not what actually happened.. and then it becomes my fault for not avoiding that collision? how ludicrious is that????

now take all the technology away and what remains is the theory behind the model. 

[Dead Man Flying]

so when you try to relate that to what you guys are saying about that my computer sees, it is definately not what actually happened.. and then it becomes my fault for not avoiding that collision? how ludicrious is that????

You didn't avoid the collision on your front end.  On your front end, your plane and his plane touched.  On his front end, they did not.  Hence, you took damage and he did not.  He may have attempted to ram you, but he actually failed to do so on his computer since he didn't take any damage and received no message.

It's not ludicrous.  It's your fault entirely.

[FLS]

so when you try to relate that to what you guys are saying about that my computer sees, it is definately not what actually happened..

This speaks to your failure to understand the previous 27 pages of explanation. What your computer sees is the definition of what actually happened.  In the universe that you are the center of, you had a collision. In the universe that the bandit is the center of, there was no collision. What actually happened is that you collided with the bandit and took damage. What actually happened is that you didn't collide with the bandit and there was no damage. Both statements are true.

[Beefcake]

I'm going to need another tub of popcorn.

[AWwrgwy]

Also, in addition to the "You have collided", he shot you.

 

wrongway

[The Fugitive]

another case study scenario...

i get chased by someone... i am flying 800 infront of him... and i decide to go vertical to lure him up for friendlies to finish him off...he follows me up... i forget at the moment that he has a more superior climb rate than my aircraft...i maintain a straight and steady steady climb, i have maybe 100 more knots before i stall...and he closes in behind me rapidly 400, 200, ... i dun ever bother to struggle to roll or turn...i close my eyes in disappointment in my stupid tactic and the next thing i know i hear a strange bang( not the expected gunfire sound) when i open my eyes... i  saw that i got a collision msg... and i miss a wing, and engine oil... he collided into me but i got the msg.. and he flies home with a free kill( no doubt he deserves the kill for getting me into this sorry predictcament, not sure if he was awarded perkies or not although i think he did... the system basically gave him that kill)... i found out later that he had run out of bullets, and decided to ram me...he was def not trying to avoid me thats for sure.

these are the descrepancies that happened many times to me....

so when you try to relate that to what you guys are saying about that my computer sees, it is definately not what actually happened.. and then it becomes my fault for not avoiding that collision? how ludicrious is that????

now take all the technology away and what remains is the theory behind the model.  

And the bolded section is where it becomes YOUR fault. NEVER give up! A hard rudder and a flip of the throttle on and off could have flipped you over for a shot, or maybe a close pass for you to dive back down to regain speed.

You have to remember that when you are flying this game it is ALMOST like flying against the computer in one of those other games that don't have an on-line version. Would you blame the computer for colliding into you? That is how you have to look at it. whats happening on your computer could be 50 feet off of what is happening on the other guys computer, that is why you have to treat it as just you against the computer.

In the scenario you posted what the other guy had on his computer was something like this....

I'm following this guys about 800 back. He goes vertical hoping to rope me or have his friends pick me in the climb. What he forgot is my plane zooms better/climbs better/has more "E" than his and I closing fast! Just as I get into a good guns range he stalls and falls off UNDER my nose !  Grrrrr. I can't take the chance in ramming him to get my shot, so I pull a bit harder to turn my climb into a loop and hope to get him on the way down. As I roll over I see he collides with me and he is heading to the ground. I go looking for another target.

This is why he doesn't get a collision message, because he missed you by 50 feet by going into a loop instead of going for the shot.

[Karnak]

another case study scenario...

i get chased by someone... i am flying 800 infront of him... and i decide to go vertical to lure him up for friendlies to finish him off...he follows me up... i forget at the moment that he has a more superior climb rate than my aircraft...i maintain a straight and steady steady climb, i have maybe 100 more knots before i stall...and he closes in behind me rapidly 400, 200, ... i dun ever bother to struggle to roll or turn...i close my eyes in disappointment in my stupid tactic and the next thing i know i hear a strange bang( not the expected gunfire sound) when i open my eyes... i  saw that i got a collision msg... and i miss a wing, and engine oil... he collided into me but i got the msg.

The only possible way you could believe this is if you do not, as you clearly don't, understand how it works.  You are mentally locked into a real world, at fault, auto collision, thought process.  Just because the collision happened from behind does not mean he collided with you.  He did not, in fact, collide with you.  The collision happened on your computer, not his.  That makes the collision your responsibility, not his.

[Chilli]

Even a broken clock is correct some times.

And if you want some details of one way to do it.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN/6042477

HiTech

Pure GOLD broken clock reference!      From that read alone, it is crystal clear that we oversimplify many things happening in the online gaming world  that work to give the illusion of real time combat interaction over vast distances via internet. 

As for discussion on collision damage and assigning blame, it doesn't appear that there could be a perfectly right alternative.  Turn all collisions on or all collision off, either way someone would feel abused or tend to abuse settings. 

I could be wrong, but it seems that some of what is inflammatory is the amount of damage awarded to the participants.  For example on my computer someone appears on my end to clip my wing with his nose.  I lose a wing, and he loses a tail gear.

After listening to the discusions, I understand the frustration in the above instance on the part of the wing loss versus a bumpy landing.  What I have to agree, is the damage done on your plane comes from what has happened on your front end, where as the tail section collided on the front end of the other computer in the above example.  Basically, if your computer didn't see him make contact on your front end you would receive no damage, while his computer saw a collision on his front end so damage would occur.

^^^
I think I got it 

[des506]

The only possible way you could believe this is if you do not, as you clearly don't, understand how it works.  You are mentally locked into a real world, at fault, auto collision, thought process.  Just because the collision happened from behind does not mean he collided with you.  He did not, in fact, collide with you.  The collision happened on your computer, not his.  That makes the collision your responsibility, not his.

this is what i mean... take all the technology involved in this model aside for a min, lag, latency, what the computer sees etc,......think abt it for a sec theoratically...  i am infront of someone and trying to fly away from some one who wants to kill me... or ..i'm sitting on runway waiting for a squaddie to up so we can fly together?  NOW... lets put the technology involved in this... and then suddenly everything gets screwed up and now i am at fault for causing a collision.. does it make sense to anyone? 

now if i have to assign blame to a variable... i can't put the fault on the internet because thats a uncontrollable variable.... so that leaves the prefect aces high collision model that is modeled on how the internet works...and myself for trying to fly with this kind of latency...

[FLS]

 

[Karnak]

this is what i mean... take all the technology involved in this model aside for a min, lag, latency, what the computer sees etc,......think abt it for a sec theoratically...  i am infront of someone and trying to fly away from some one who wants to kill me... or ..i'm sitting on runway waiting for a squaddie to up so we can fly together?  NOW... lets put the technology involved in this... and then suddenly everything gets screwed up and now i am at fault for causing a collision.. does it make sense to anyone? 

now if i have to assign blame to a variable... i can't put the fault on the internet because thats a uncontrollable variable.... so that leaves the prefect aces high collision model that is modeled on how the internet works...and myself for trying to fly with this kind of latency...

Then go play single player games.  You want something that does not and will not exist for the foreseeable future.  Maybe, just maybe, quantum computing will offer a solution to the limits of light speed, but have fun waiting for that.

Also, you need to lose the "you were at fault" idea and understand the "only you had any chance to avoid it, though due to additional circumstances in a few rare cases you could not avoid it and that is just how it goes" idea.

[Skuzzy]

another case study scenario...

i get chased by someone... i am flying 800 infront of him... and i decide to go vertical to lure him up for friendlies to finish him off...he follows me up... i forget at the moment that he has a more superior climb rate than my aircraft[...i maintain a straight and steady steady climb, i have maybe 100 more knots before i stall...and he closes in behind me rapidly 400, 200, ... i dun ever bother to struggle to roll or turn...i close my eyes in disappointment in my stupid tactic and the next thing i know i hear a strange bang( not the expected gunfire sound) when i open my eyes... i  saw that i got a collision msg... and i miss a wing, and engine oil... he collided into me but i got the msg.. and he flies home with a free kill( no doubt he deserves the kill for getting me into this sorry predictcament, not sure if he was awarded perkies or not although i think he did... the system basically gave him that kill)... i found out later that he had run out of bullets, and decided to ram me...he was def not trying to avoid me thats for sure.

these are the descrepancies that happened many times to me....

so when you try to relate that to what you guys are saying about that my computer sees, it is definately not what actually happened.. and then it becomes my fault for not avoiding that collision? how ludicrious is that????

now take all the technology away and what remains is the theory behind the model.  

That is not a descrepancy.

What you are saying here is the other player made the choice to avoid the collision and you did not.  The system did exactly what is is supposed to do, because it is the fairest alternative available.

[MK-84]

Well Skuzzy likes pain

You cant win an argument with someone who is unwilling to look at the facts.

On your PC end:  If you whack someone...you take damage
On your PC end:  If they whack you...They take damage
On EACH PC end if you both whack each other...you both take damage.

And the reason this happens...is because of this crazy thing called latency...or lag if you will.  Which means, WHAT YOU SEE IS NOT WHAT THEY SEE.

Thats about as simple as it gets, but some people will still refuse to believe it.