HE-177

[Karnak]

The problem I have with the He177A-5 is that, on paper, it would be a far, far better bomber than the in reality much superior B-17G and Lancaster Mk III we have in AH.  This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH.  That strikes me as absurd.  I would much rather see the H8K2 'Emily' or Piaggio P.108 as the Axis heavy bomber.

Which leads back to the question I posted on the first page, what would its bomb load options look like in AH?

[Lusche]

This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH.  

Well, there are some other planes that have in AH a role MUCH more significant than in RL. Most notably the Me 163. In terms of engine reliability, we could also argue about the Me 262.

Just to make clear, I'm very torn about it when it comes to the possible addition of the He 177 for the same reasons as you. However, it's not without precedence and IMHO quite in line with the past HT policy.

Which leads back to the question I posted on the first page, what would its bomb load options look like in AH?

Some typical loadouts:

48x50kg
12x250kg
6x500kg
6x1000kg
2x1800kg

[33Vortex]

The problem I have with the He177A-5 is that, on paper, it would be a far, far better bomber than the in reality much superior B-17G and Lancaster Mk III we have in AH.  This makes me concerned that we would end up in a situation where the "absolutely no impact, best contribution was to draw fire during Allied straffing attacks by being such a large, tempting target" He177 was the dominant bomber in AH.  That strikes me as absurd.

You mean much like the 262 is applied in AH? Its presence can certainly be considered absurd. Yet we are used to it. The B17 may have been practical and the He177 may not have been, but the B17 was also a 1935 design while the He177 was a 1942 design. A lot of tooling and technology development happened between those years and Germany was the world leader in machine tooling. Also consider that the a/c in question can be perked, like the 262 and B29.

People also conveniently forget that the withdrawal of the He177 fleet from service can be attributed just as much (if not more) to fuel shortages and industrial manufacturing challenges as the aircraft itself. The Luftwaffe simply had no fuel, nor pilots, to maintain a bomber fleet. These problems should not be translated into aircraft shortcomings.

[Karnak]

Well, there are some other planes that have in AH a role MUCH more significant than in RL. Most notably the Me 163. In terms of engine reliability, we could also argue about the Me 262.

I agree, and can name other examples.  However, none of them are as egregious as the He177 being the main heavy bomber over the B-17, B-24 and Lancaster would be.  The dominant fighters are the P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI (LF.Mk IXe) and La-7.  Only the three gun La-7 is egregious in that list.

Some typical loadouts:

48x50kg
12x250kg
6x500kg
6x1000kg
2x1800kg

None of those seem too bad.  Depending on its survivability it shouldn't be a threat to the Lancaster's position and may not be a threat to the B-17's either.  It should be modeled as being structurally fragile unlike the other heavy bombers I would think.

You mean much like the 262 is applied in AH? Its presence can certainly be considered absurd. Yet we are used to it. The B17 may have been practical and the He177 may not have been, but the B17 was also a 1935 design while the He177 was a 1942 design. A lot of tooling and technology development happened between those years and Germany was the world leader in machine tooling.

The Me262 is rare in AH and is not dominant.  None of the other stuff you mention is relevant.

Also consider that the a/c in question can be perked, like the 262 and B29.

Aircraft are only perked for performance, not rarity.  It would be sheerly absurd to have the He177 modeled as being so good it has to be perked.

People also conveniently forget that the withdrawal of the He177 fleet from service can be attributed just as much (if not more) to fuel shortages and industrial manufacturing challenges as the aircraft itself. The Luftwaffe simply had no fuel, nor pilots, to maintain a bomber fleet. These problems should not be translated into aircraft shortcomings.

The German pilots refused to fly it post war.  Would. Not. Fly. It. For. Pay.  That was not true of any other German non-rocket aircraft.

[Lusche]

None of those seem too bad.  Depending on its survivability it shouldn't be a threat to the Lancaster's position and may not be a threat to the B-17's either.  It should be modeled as being structurally fragile unlike the other heavy bombers I would think.

I disagree on the structure. The structure itself was quite durable, as it was designed for dive bombing. While this proved to be still not practicable, the frame strength should still be at elast average, if not above average for a plane of it's class. It allowed the He 177 to fly a unique and very fast egress profile in the Steinbock attacks 1944.
It would be different for the engines though. While general reliability isn't modeled, engines can be very susceptible to damage. Best example are the Me 262's Jumo engines, which get smoked even with a few .303 pings. If that would be modeled in a similar way for the He 177, it would offset any speed/loadout structure advantages quite a bit. If ya lose one of only two engines in a heavy bomber... 

[Karnak]

Eric Brown seems to have understood it to be fragile and that he had to be careful with the elevators as they were light to the touch.

I agree with the idea of modeling the engines as very fragile.  I'd suggest that the fuselage structure be modeled as weak for its size as well.

[Lusche]

Eric Brown seems to have understood it to be fragile and that he had to be careful with the elevators as they were light to the touch.

He had read intelligence reports about it and was careful when actually diving that plane. I also know no German reports of the He 177 being weak, just not "strong enough" for it's intended dive bombing role. That doesn't make it a structural weak airplane. He 177 was also suffering, like basically all late war German planes, from varying production quality, we do not have that simulated in other planes either.
As I stated before, the strength of it's frame allowed the He 177 to have significantly lower losses than other bombers taking part, not at least due to the fact that it returned from England in a shallow dive at (for bombers) very high speeds. Armor and structure help vs AA fire too. The weak points were the engines and the horribly low experience level of both aircrews as well as maintenance personnel, which all contributed to a high number of aborts due to technical failures.

[33Vortex]

The Me262 is rare in AH and is not dominant.  None of the other stuff you mention is relevant.Aircraft are only perked for performance, not rarity.  It would be sheerly absurd to have the He177 modeled as being so good it has to be perked.

The issue was raised by another poster that the performance ingame would not be representative of it's actual war-time performance and I suggested perking as a counterweight. Not saying that these fears for uber-performance was justified in the first place.

The German pilots refused to fly it post war.  Would. Not. Fly. It. For. Pay.  That was not true of any other German non-rocket aircraft.

Now that's not relevant either. And to say that the He177 was structurally weak?


I'm largely of the same opinion as Lusche. However the He177 is not deserving to be added any more than a few dozen other aircraft that all played important roles in the air war. So the bickering about details regarding the He177 is a little over the top imho.

[atom360]

Guys jest say Yes OR No if you think the bomber is "OK" for HTC to add because all i see now is details details details.

[olds442]

Guys jest say Yes OR No if you think the bomber is "OK" for HTC to add because all i see now is details details details.

um the details are good.

[Butcher]

If people can use the Lancaster to dive bomb, then add the He-177, besides it would be great to have 109s and 90s escorting it (soon 410s)

Got my vote only after He-111 is added

[Beefcake]

+1 for more German Bombers.