Author Topic: P-51b Convergence  (Read 2529 times)

Offline Slade

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P-51b Convergence
« on: January 01, 2012, 07:22:41 AM »
Hello All,

This is directed toward P-51b pilots, where do you tend to set your convergence and why?


Thanks,

Slade   :salute
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:40:16 AM by Slade »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2012, 07:46:08 AM »
I set the P-51B convergence to 350 yards.

Why? Because I have that as my standard convergence in almost all fighters. Particularly within a class of fighters with the same armament (.50 cal in this case) it doesn't make much sense to me to have different convergences, as this requires you to memorize different aim points.

The 350 setting proved the most versatile one for my personal combat style, as I use do the whole range from getting close & saddling up to long range (800+) sniping. in particular I open fore at D1000 when attacking bombers in .50 cal equipped planes. (I'm mainly buff hunting when flying the 51B)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:49:31 AM by Lusche »
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Offline Slade

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2012, 08:30:22 AM »
Snailman,

Thanks for the feedback.  

Just so I am clear on your answer, when attacking another fighter with convergence at 350 where would to begin shooting? Ideally yes 350 but just curious if you find 50 cals effective out a bit while convergence set to 350.

[Sidebar]
I noticed some in F4U's set their convergence (50 cals) out to 500 or 550 so as they can "lead" the track of bullets better.  Maybe it is the nature of F4U that close in shots are under the cowling otherwise.  I don't know.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 08:36:13 AM by Slade »
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Offline Lusche

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2012, 08:38:49 AM »
Just so I am clear on your answer, when attacking another fighter with convergence at 350 where would to begin shooting? Ideally yes 350 but just curious if you find 50 cals effective out a bit while convergence set to 350.

Depends fully on the situation. Of course I always try to get as close as possible, but I shoot at almost every distance if I see a good opportunity.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2012, 09:35:44 AM »
Convergence is a very personal thing. I have a horrible aim but I'm sure it's due to not enough pratice. I only get to play once a week, and like golf you just can't get better doing that.

From my experience, one of the things I read was that the range numbers are set up so that as soon as it changes from 400 to 200 you are at 300 yards out. So the idea is set your convergence to 300, and shoot when you see that number switch. Simple right? Well the top guns say that the best way to get kills is to set up crossing shots, get into a scissor or force an over-shoot and take your shot as they cross in front of you on your wing-line (left to right, or right to left). The problem then becomes timing your overshoots to coincide with that yardage number change over.  :rolleyes:

After watching a bunch of my films I noticed I was shooting farther out for most of my crossing shots so moved my convergence out to 425 and my hit percentage started going back up. What I'm saying is set them one way and try it for a day, film the runs and then look at how and what your doing. Adjust as needed. Everyone is different. Don't be afraid to tweak it.

Last thing, PRACTICE !!!   :D 

Offline Raptor05121

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2012, 09:55:29 AM »
I like 300. I'm not a Pony pilot, but whenever I fly .50s, it seems when I get under 300, just a quick burst will cause them to go boom. My favorite attack is when you come in from behind and fast, so you have a wing profile and have the ability to hit everything: canopy, wing, fuel, engine, etc by just leading the bullets a hair. And I have tracers off.
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Offline Butcher

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »
I generally set for 300-350 based on I will try to get as close as possible just before ramming - then fire away a burst.

Further you are tends to lead to more ammo sprayed, if you are on top you can't miss.
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Offline Gr8pape

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2012, 06:57:38 PM »
I usually set 350-375 in PonyB and FM2, only 4 guns. In 6 shooters i stretch out to 400 max, but as the other post said try different ranges and figure out what works best for you. Remember that stick jitter comes into play the further you stretch out your convergence so check your deadband setting on your stick. It all boils down to personal preference. <S>
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2012, 09:40:27 PM »
I set ALL of my fighter air to air (vs other fighters) to 300. 

If I go up bomber hunting then I set convergence to 400.

If I up with the full intention to hammer ground targets, namely ammo bunkers, radar towers, barracks, or soft gv's, I set convergence to 400.

Forget which weapons or platform you are using, ultimately it doesn't matter.  The bulk of your fighter vs fighter kill shots are inside 400 yards, and in actuality they are inside 300 yards.  The chance of anyone being able to really land hits on an enemy fighter at 400+ is a lot lower than one may think.  Only in the straight away do you land enough hits, especially with MG's, to do enough damage worthy enough to mention.  REMEMBER, when you set convergence you are also setting "trajectory".  When people set their convergence at 650 yards, they are much higher at 300 than they realize.  In a dogfight, you need to use your sights to the fullest, and having to compensate for trajectory against a target that spends the great bulk of the "on target" time inside 400 yards is absolutely wasteful of resources.  Also, when the range indicator says "400", it means the enemy plane is between 400 yards and 201 yards.

With regards to the P51B, FM2, and any other 4/.50 cal fighter (or other such lightly gunned plane), forget trying to get kill shots on anything beyond 400 yards.  Save your ammo for shot inside 400 yards.  Set your convergence at 300 and once the indicator says "400", let 'em have it.  Those fighters NEED "time on target" to get the kill and they NEED as many rounds to connect in as small of an area as possible.  Setting the convergence at 650 (or 500, etc) is very contrary to allow that to happen.               
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Offline MK-84

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 02:50:56 AM »
A little off topic...

I've been flying a lot of Japanese planes lately, and of interesting not, I am now having immense difficulty hitting now with browning .50's and hispanos.  my aim has gotten much better with the 262 though as a result.

I almost always fire at distances of 250 or less however and dispersal of the rounds at ranges has little effect for me.  However it appears as far as ballistic drop is concerned, I'm so used to that that I a am way over correcting when flying other planes.

I set all japanese planes at 250 convergence
109's and 190s at 250 unless I take the quad-cannon A8 and thats 250 and 300
Me262 is 450 and 500
Dual hispano's are 300
Quad Hispano's are 400
Browning .50s are 400
37mm Yak and Il2, and hurri2D are 400
Everything else is 300

But once again my aim is not very good, I like to get so close I could toss a rock and hit the other plane.  and since I'm rambling  :uhoh  The point of the post was how interesting it is that I have alot of trouble with planes with good ballistics as a result of flying planes that have poor ones.  Theres gotta be something I'm on to here :/

Offline Pand

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2012, 02:56:11 AM »
I'm a 400 yard man in the B and D --- gives me the best dispersion ratio as close as 200 and as far as 600.

Regards,

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Offline MK-84

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2012, 03:36:25 AM »
and since we're on the subject of convergence...

How much in our game does it make a difference I wonder.
If I snapshot an enemy with .50s at a range of 200, what would be the difference in damage if I was converged at 400 vs 200?
I understand how this would work in RL  but how much of a difference in AH :headscratch:

Offline mtnman

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2012, 06:41:28 PM »
I agree 100% with what you guys are saying about getting in close before firing.  As I've stated in previous threads on this subject, I recommend setting convergence at around 300 yards and firing as the icon counter changes from D400 to D200.

I noticed some in F4U's set their convergence (50 cals) out to 500 or 550 so as they can "lead" the track of bullets better.  Maybe it is the nature of F4U that close in shots are under the cowling otherwise.  I don't know.

I don't doubt that some set their guns up this way; I've repeatedly heard of some doing it for years...  

However, this is in fact based on an erroneous assumption on how trajectory works in AH (and in RL).  By setting convergence out that far on the wing-mounted F4U .50's they're actually keeping their rounds LOWER (in relation to the LoS) throughout the range of their bullets.  This works opposite of their intentions.  To get the effect they desire they'd need to set their convergence in very close (@150 yards) but this would also cause them other problems.  It would give them the trajectory they desire in order to make it "easier" to lead targets turning with them in a circle, while at the same time making it less likely that they could hit anything or at least that they'd be able to land enough concentrated hits to be effective.

Some people try to do the same thing with cannon rounds.  That's also a strategy that sounds good on the surface, but that doesn't actually work as advertised.

See the last few posts of this thread to see what I mean-

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html

REMEMBER, when you set convergence you are also setting "trajectory".  When people set their convergence at 650 yards, they are much higher at 300 than they realize.  

Not for wing-mounted guns (i.e. the P51B).  With a convergence of 650, the bullets are still below the gun sight (and the LoS) at 300 yards (assuming a level shot under "perfect" conditions).  Not all that much too low either (you'd likely hit both wings of a fighter by aiming at the center of its fuselage).

Check out the 600/300 screenshot in reply #24 of the linked thread.

Also, when the range indicator says "400", it means the enemy plane is between 400 yards and 201 yards.    

The "D" number is in the center of the 200yd space between icon changes.  So, D400 actually covers the space between 300 and 499 yards.  This can be verified by using the film viewer.  The D200 icon would be displayed for an airplane between 100 and 299 yards.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 06:44:41 PM by mtnman »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2012, 08:00:46 PM »
and since we're on the subject of convergence...

How much in our game does it make a difference I wonder.
If I snapshot an enemy with .50s at a range of 200, what would be the difference in damage if I was converged at 400 vs 200?
I understand how this would work in RL  but how much of a difference in AH :headscratch:

Once you learn to land hits with the crossing shots at around the D200 range (an actual 300yards) you'll be much more effective with a brief shot if you have all of your guns focused to a single point at that range (by having convergence set at about 300yds.  A brief shot with .50's set like that (and at that range) will zip the wing right off of almost any fighter in AH like a chainsaw.

Hitting a fighter at any range other than what you have your convergence set will do several things.  One of those is that it'll split your bullets into two separate groups rather than one (this almost always happens anyway, because you're almost never able to maintain exactly the correct distance from your target).  This is bad though because it ensures that none of your bullets will go where you're aiming, and that they'll be split into two groups (one or both of which may miss your target completely).

As range increases bullet spread increases due to the modeled dispersion as well, which means that if you have your guns set for 400yds and hit a target at 400 yards, your bullets are spread out more than they would be if you had them set at 200 and hit a target at 200.  The bullets are slowing down as well.  Overall, this means that a "perfect" shot at 400 is somewhat less effective than a "perfect" shot at 200yds.  The bullets are slower and more spread out at 400 yards.  This isn't to say that the guns aren't effective at those longer ranges, they're just not quite AS effective, even under "perfect" conditions.

Bullets essentially just poke holes in the other airplane, and that doesn't do much if you don't hit something important (like a spar).  Just poking holes in the wing (or fuselage) all over the place won't effect the other plane much.  You need to land a concentration of bullets into the correct place, while close enough so that your bullets have enough energy, and for long enough to significantly damage the vital part you're targeting.  Placement, energy, and time.

In reality you can't have everything though, so it's a question of "happy mediums" or "best" set-ups, rather than "perfect" set-ups. 

Your bullets have the most energy at the moment they leave the muzzle; they begin slowing down right away, so setting convergence in close will maximize bullet energy at impact.  Setting convergence in too close will cause problems though, and make it unlikely that you'll be able to hit anything either closer or further than exactly at convergence (see the linked thread above).  Setting convergence out too far brings dispersion, reduced energy, smaller apparent targets, and increased time-of-flight into the equation (which translates into increased leads and a more-difficult judgement of the speed and flight-path of your opponent), and also leads to some misunderstandings when it comes to trajectory.  So, closer is better than further; as long as you don't come in too close.

What's "too close"?  I'd say around 200yds and closer based on what I know when it comes to trajectory.  Some of the early-war planes may do well though with a 200-250yd convergence.  What's too far?  Personally, I think 400 is getting "way out there", but surely 450 is what I'd consider too far.  That leaves the space between 250 and 350 to be in what I consider to be the "optimal" range for most weapons when it comes to landing the most rounds possible "on target". 

Based on my own shooting preferences, I've settled on 275 as my best convergence point.  I like to begin aiming as I come through the D400 "zone", and solidify my aim to fire just after I close to the D200 mark (which means I'm firing at just under 300 yards whenever possible).

The end result though, is that long-term you'll be more effective on those crossing 200yd shots if you have your convergence set to 200 than you would if you had it set to 400...
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: P-51b Convergence
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2012, 09:51:01 PM »

Not for wing-mounted guns (i.e. the P51B).  With a convergence of 650, the bullets are still below the gun sight (and the LoS) at 300 yards (assuming a level shot under "perfect" conditions).  Not all that much too low either (you'd likely hit both wings of a fighter by aiming at the center of its fuselage).

The "D" number is in the center of the 200yd space between icon changes.  So, D400 actually covers the space between 300 and 499 yards.  This can be verified by using the film viewer.  The D200 icon would be displayed for an airplane between 100 and 299 yards.

I understand your point clearly, but I'm speaking on terms of setting the guns to 650 vs setting them to 300 and having a smaller "sweet spot" by using the 300 yd setting.  There are fewer variables to account for if the guns are used where they are most effective and when the shot are more often connected, i.e. inside 400 yards.  In short, player does not have to take in to account "shooting high" at targets under 400 if the convergence is set to 300 (figuratively).  If the convergence is set 650, they do.

Thanks for clarifying the D400, etc.  I thought I read in a thread when I first started playing back in Jan-Feb of 2007 than the 400 icon meant it was between that marker and the next lower distance icon.  I'll pass along the info.   :aok
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