A tale of two spins

[Groth]

I and squadies have noticed same in p-38 usually upon intense flite manuvers and we call it 'p-38 spin o death'...I have no quick access to seperate throttles so...down it floats..which seems conter to assym prop rotation and is a deffinete drifts to same side...for many tours...

[BaldEagl]

See Rule #4

[VIPER]

Obviously you aren't.  That was totally uncalled for.

Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.  
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right

but that is ok


Viper

[Traveler]

i apologize for you thinking I have attacked you     problem? no problem,  it just seemed too funny that you posted your resume to describe something you found to be what you thought was a bug or wrong with Aces High P-38 flight model

let me find a place to post a film, and if I get time I will grab a P-38L?   L model right?   and do your power off stall and on purpose  spin  in both directions
what fuel load did you use? so I can try and recreate your exact scenario
no hard feelings,  I should not have been so hard on someone with your stature I guess

 

Viper

Please point out to me where you think I said there was a bug with the Aces High P-38 flight model?  I provided film and I asked for others to comment on what I was experiencing.  I never said that there was a bug.

If you read the original post it states the conditions of my flight.   But so there is no mistake, the aircraft was 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets.

I entered a power off stall at 5000 feet.  Spun to the right and was unable to recover using normal spin recovery procedures.  All spins to the left can be recovered from.   

[VIPER]

Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH  might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking

and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.


Viper

[Traveler]

Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH  might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking

and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.


Viper

Please don’t put words in my mouth.  Please show me where I said there was a bug or that the AH flight model for the P38 has a problem.  

I filmed the experience I was having and asked for comments.  I may very well have a control configuration problem.  Perhaps when I apply left ruder I’m not getting 100% of the ruder input.   That’s why I posted my film and asked for others to comment.  It’s not necessary for you to inject your assumptions.  

I did contact Soulyss and he agreed with me that the P38 was next to impossible to recover in a right spin using normal spin recovery procedures.  And incase you missed it.  That’s my point.   If you look at the P38 pilots manual you will see that Stall and spin recovery procedure were defined as Normal.  That means you should be able to recover from a spin to the right with out adding power to one engine.

Viper, that’s that little snake in the grass, right?

[Tupac]

deleted for fear of the wrath of Skuzzy

[Traveler]

Yes Sir, it does my bad! I should have scrolled back up and re-read it
the Bug was my assumption of what you might be thinking, you never said bug. you just said that AH  might have the P-38L FM wrong, indirectly speaking

and now I will go download your films. why did you not try it while being light 2 1k bombs and 10 rkts is a hvy load.


Viper

I did fly the test in different load configurations and with different flap settings and with gear up and down.  Also different fuel loads.   No difference in the result.   I posted the load outs for the film that I published.

[VIPER]

I did fly the test in different load configurations and with different flap settings and with gear up and down.  Also different fuel loads.   No difference in the result.   I posted the load outs for the film that I published.

ok, just made a film testing P-38L  75% fuel loadout 2 1K bombs and 10 rkts


power off stall at 5,000 ft   gear up / no flaps used    (I did use flaps on 1 of the spins, I let the spin really spin 3 rotations before trying to recover, and got really close to ground so used flaps to keep from pancaking)

cut throttle, full stick backpressure full righ t rudder to induce spin

to recover - full stick forward , full left rudder to counter spin, spin stops increase throtttle to pull out

did it several times

did the spin to the left several times as well.  I had no problems.  I did not have to use an small amount of throttle on right engine only.

are you using combat trim?    I was using manual trim , trimmed out to level flight speed of 300 mph ias


I need to find place to host this film

Viper

[VIPER]

what is a Viper?  its a venomous snake, one of them slithering lil devils that pack a whallop when they bite!  j/k

but seriously. you can use the raw data in the controls section to see if you are having problems with your  rudder axis going full left,  I am pretty sure


Viper

[VIPER]

deleted for fear of the wrath of Skuzzy

Tupac
you young whippersnapper, feel free to private message me anything you want to say. I promise not to report you.   one should not have to fear the wraith of anyone
speak your mind


Viper

[colmbo]

I only did 4 or 5 spins loaded as Traveler was.  Spin to right reluctant to recover, a little asymmetric power stopped most of them, on one I had to use a bit of aileron to get wings level to horizon before rotation stopped.

Something I noticed was as the spin developed the yoke moved forward even though I was hold full back stick.  I was not using Combat Trim.  A look at the elevator showed that it had gone to the "down" position.  I tried P40E and noticed same thing with the elevator.  As the spin develops the in cockpit stick moves forward, elevator moves down.

Cartoon planes don't spin right...not in AH, not in Warbirds, not in Air Warrior or any other sim.

[Tupac]

Tupac
you young whippersnapper, feel free to private message me anything you want to say. I promise not to report you.   one should not have to fear the wraith of anyone
speak your mind


Viper

It wasnt an attack, was just worried about the language I used.

[BaldEagl]

Obviously, you did not bother to read where I posted an apology to Traveler, Baldy.  
or where I offered to try and recreate his tests to film and post to either back up his claim or possibly show recovery while spinning to the right

but that is ok


Viper

I was typing while you posted.

[Ardy123]

Cartoon planes don't spin right...not in AH, not in Warbirds, not in Air Warrior or any other sim.

Please correct my understanding on the dynamics of this...
1) What makes a single engine plane spin at stall is the torque of the engine, correct?
2) Thus a plane with counter rotating props, a power on stall should have no spin, correct?
3) Thus, a plane should only spin to the left or to the right as a result of control surface changes, correct?

What other forces have a significant impact on the spin of the aircraft at stall (torque, propwash, control surface deflection, and...)?
At what speed does the rudder loose its authority?