Rifle caliber armament.

[MK-84]

Are these really as ineffective as they are in AH?  I certainly do not know, but wow they seem useless, and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Lusche]

Polemic answer: Yes, they were. Why do you think fighter planes were being quickly upgunned during the war?



Now 'ineffective' is a somewhat vague term. The British shot down hundreds of fighters & bombers in the BoB with nothing but BB's, but still were aware of the rather urgent need to go to bigger calibers. And that's reflected in AH quite well: in EW fights the 8x MG gun batteries are sufficient in most situations, but as the targets get more durable and master, you are wishing for cannons more and more.

[MK-84]

Polemic answer: Yes, they were. Why do you think fighter planes were being quickly upgunned during the war?

I know many were upgunned to deal with armor plate, and larger bombers, and faster aircraft...but I was not looking for the "obvious, MK84's a tard reply"

Maybe I didnt phrase it how I meant. I can't explain it really, but it seems so hard for say a a6m2 (without cannon) to take out a P47 to the point of it being so silly its...well silly).  As in he's stalling on the deck helpless and you're absolutely unloading with so little effect it takes almost your entire clip to take him down.

What I meant was, is that realistic?  I always thought that usually the "shot margin" was very small, and as planes got faster, bigger better armored, it required more weight thrown at the target.  please look at what I'm wondering, not how I say it.

[Lusche]

What I meant was, is that realistic?

Yes. A P-47 is a huge, armored target with a very strong airframe. You have to kill the pilot, set it ablaze or destroy a criticial component (like a wing spar). And that's indeed not easy with only two light machine guns. You need a lot of well placed hits on the spar for example. Or the proverbial lucky "headshot" hitting without meeting armor first.
Again, if it hadn't been that way, nobody would have gone to heavy MG and cannons that quick.

And like in RL, it still can be done in AH, but you are better to be a good pilot & shooter.

[MK-84]

makes total sense
But something is missing, I just dont know what the right question is
I guess my best (not very good) example is the Ki43.  It does not seem possible at all that in AH it could get anything other than a lucky kill, even VS reasonably contempory aircraft)  But it did.  I just have trouble imagining it dumping half its ords into an enemy fighter for it to go down, out of sheer volume, it may not damage the airframe so much, but I would think it would hit something that would cause the enemy to go down.

I really dont know, but if I imagine myself flying a Ki43 in AH...I will get slightly more kills than a val...and that does not make sense

edit:  Ki43's are higher caliber... forgot that :/ then again...c202?

[Lusche]

In some way, RL kills are way more often 'lucky kills" than in here. The combat environment is totally different in AH, our view easily being somewhat distorted my the huge amount of kills made, both absolutely as well as per time/sortie.
Also, a slow rifle caliber plane in AH doesn't only face the challenge to kill it's opponents - one main reason it's less effective is that it competes with cannon armed friendlies for that kill. Before you can saddle up and kill the enemy, another player on the same team would have. You simply get your 12 cleared way too often
It would be totally different in a scenario / fso setup, in which for example Ki-43 would face Wildcats or early Hurricanes / Spitfires.

Once you saddle up, .303's and comparable guns can be deadly. Hurricane I will shred any plane at D200 if you get a proper gun solution (I have almost 800 kills in LW arena in it, including B-17s), and even a D3A with only 2 MG will kill (I have shot down Il-2's with it).

[Lusche]

Just another bit to show the differences.

Approximate energy at muzzle for different projectiles:

rifle caliber MG: ~3,000J
heavy MG (M2): ~18,000J
20mm cannon (Hispano): ~ 48,000J (+ chemical energy of the explosive filler which does not decrease over distance)

[Fish42]

Once you saddle up, .303's and comparable guns can be deadly. Hurricane I will shred any plane at D200 if you get a proper gun solution (I have almost 800 kills in LW arena in it, including B-17s), and even a D3A with only 2 MG will kill (I have shot down Il-2's with it).

Very true.  If you can get them to turn with you then it will take a solid 2-3 secs of hits on the same spot to cause critical damage.

[RTHolmes]

its great discipline flying a BB armed fighter - no long range shots, no snapshots, you have to saddle up and you have to keep pouring those rounds into the same spot. after a while you realise that you are targetting a specific part of the plane rather than just chucking cannon rounds at it knowing that something will fall off eventually. and it does wonders for your gunnery when you switch back to a cannon bird

[SmokinLoon]

The slower the aircraft the more effective the smaller caliber of weapons are.  The more "time on target" available the easier it is to be effective with the smaller calibers.  The "Oscar", Brewster Buffalo, P40B/C, Spitfires, Hurricanes, and a whole host of other pre-war and early war aircraft did just fine with .30 calibers.

   

[Oldman731]

its great discipline flying a BB armed fighter - no long range shots, no snapshots, you have to saddle up and you have to keep pouring those rounds into the same spot.

Quite often people don't realize that a .30 caliber gun just can't reach out to 300+ yards range and still be useful.  Set your convergence to 175-200 yards, get behind your opponent (takes more than a few hits to bring one down, so crossing shots just don't work) and wait until you're 200 yards or less away.  At those ranges the .30s really can chew up virtually any plane.  Macchi 202 is the same, even though the cowl guns are 12.7s.  The Italian version of the .50 fired a much lighter bullet, so you're still pretty well limited to 200-yard shots or less.

Keep in mind that these "short" ranges are faithful to actual WWII practice.  AH's 600 yard shooting was not particularly effective in real life.

- oldman

[230G]

Maybe I didnt phrase it how I meant. I can't explain it really, but it seems so hard for say a a6m2 (without cannon) to take out a P47 to the point of it being so silly its...well silly).  As in he's stalling on the deck helpless and you're absolutely unloading with so little effect it takes almost your entire clip to take him down.

  I'm with you...sort of. On the surface, it does seem silly. But if you've ever stood next to something like a B-17 or P-47 (I have) then you begin to understand why it was so difficult to bring them down. They're ENORMOUS aircraft.

  For a very descriptive, first hand account of just how difficult a P-47 could be to shoot down, find a copy of Thunderbolt! by Robert Johnson. Here's a synopsis of the account:

 "After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer.[2] [N 1]After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.

  Somewhere I have VHS tape of a P-47 pilot describing landing his heavily damaged bird. Upon contact with the runway, the tail section broke off the fuselage and was drug down the runway by the control cables until the plane came to a stop.

  230G

[Seadog36]

  I'm with you...sort of. On the surface, it does seem silly. But if you've ever stood next to something like a B-17 or P-47 (I have) then you begin to understand why it was so difficult to bring them down.

  For a very descriptive, first hand account of just how difficult a P-47 could be to shoot down, find a copy of Thundebolt! by Robert Johnson. Here's a synopsis of the account:

 "After pulling out of an uncontrolled spin and with the fire amazingly going out on its own, Johnson headed for the English Channel, but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage from both 7.92mm and 20mm rounds, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, who, after saluting him by rocking his wings, turned back. His opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Egon Mayer.[2] [N 1]After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including 21, 20 mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the aircraft, he gave up.

  Somewhere I have VHS tape of a P-47 pilot describing landing his heavily damaged bird. Upon contact with the runway, the tail section broke off the fuselage and was drug down the runway by the control cables until the plane came to a stop.

  230G

Hear Hear! The jug is under modeled for it's ability to sustain damage in AH! The sorrowful penalty to climb rate for all that heavy duty airplane is not though. Still a beast!

[Butcher]

Quite often people don't realize that a .30 caliber gun just can't reach out to 300+ yards range and still be useful.  Set your convergence to 175-200 yards, get behind your opponent (takes more than a few hits to bring one down, so crossing shots just don't work) and wait until you're 200 yards or less away.  At those ranges the .30s really can chew up virtually any plane.  Macchi 202 is the same, even though the cowl guns are 12.7s.  The Italian version of the .50 fired a much lighter bullet, so you're still pretty well limited to 200-yard shots or less.

Keep in mind that these "short" ranges are faithful to actual WWII practice.  AH's 600 yard shooting was not particularly effective in real life.

- oldman

You can set 303s to 250-300 yards out, I wouldn't go much beyond 325 unless you have incredible aim. I had no problem dropping a few planes with C202s and Hurri 1s.

[Karnak]

Hear Hear! The jug is under modeled for it's ability to sustain damage in AH! The sorrowful penalty to climb rate for all that heavy duty airplane is not though. Still a beast!

One extreme example is not a useful basis on which to model durability.