1946

[EVZ]

people who request sabres and what not should go in the ma and try to turn fight with 262's.

Here's an INTERESTING jet that would maybe qualify for a 1946 arena ... It was scheduled to be completed in May of 45 with production aircraft available in October ... but the factory was captured in april. FW TA - 183 ... Turnfight THIS!

[Karnak]

Here's an INTERESTING jet that would maybe qualify for a 1946 arena ... It was scheduled to be completed in May of 45 with production aircraft available in October ... but the factory was captured in april. FW TA - 183 ... Turnfight THIS!

(Image removed from quote.)

And what are the performance numbers for the Ta183?  Oh yeah, nobody knows so they would just be fantasy guess numbers.  Sorry, but a 1946 arena would be, with few exceptions, just for American, British and Russian aircraft.

[Delirium]

You can experience 1946 right now; sit at home and listen to the radio while trying to find your way back into civilian life.

[EVZ]

And what are the performance numbers for the Ta183?  Oh yeah, nobody knows so they would just be fantasy guess numbers.  Sorry, but a 1946 arena would be, with few exceptions, just for American, British and Russian aircraft.

Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.

The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info. It's speculated that they were particularly tight about releasing anything regarding this aircraft because the EARLY MIG aircraft were developed from it. What is known about the design comes from 2 sources  ...  Sweden received complete development info on the aircraft thru industry contacts. The info was used extensively in designing the 1st Swedish jet, the SAAB J 29 "Tunnan." -AND- plans were smuggled out by at least one German who made it to Argentina where the plane was actually produced as the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, after the war. It failed to be a commercial success for Argentina due to the fall of Juan Perone and the availability of CHEAP SURPLUS F-84s & F 86s after Korea.


GERMAN VERSION
Crew: one
Length: 9.20 m (30 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: ()
Wing area: 22.5 m² (242 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
Loaded weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet, 13 kN (2,700 lbf)
Maximum speed: 955 km/h (593 mph)
Service ceiling: 14,000 m (45,932 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.4 m/s (4,020 ft/min)
Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (41 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.37
4 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons
4 × Ruhrstahl X-4 Wire Guided AAMs or 500 kg (1,102 lb) of bombs

[Karnak]

The info isn't real though.  It is guesses.  The Ta183 never flew.  That is what I am trying to point out to you.  You are suggesting the equivalent of modeling Japanese aircraft based on the performance data from US Navy recognition charts that were guessing how the Japanese aircraft in question performed.

How do you not understand this?

[EVZ]

The info isn't real though.  It is guesses. How do you not understand this?

The documentation provided to the swedes is unquestionably real ... These specs were included. The Russians captured everything else it seems and AFAIK have NEVER released a single photograph or document ... but most aircraft buffs DO make the immediate association with the early MIGs upon seeing the drawing.

What I do understand is your policy of griefing every aircraft submitted that isn't on YOUR APPROVED LIST ... and of making completely fictitious assumptions and statements like "The info isn't REAL" in this case it was REAL enough to enable development of 2 different aircraft by 2 different countries. (and probably served to bring the soviets into the jet age too.) like I said - it's interesting !

[Wmaker]

 

[Guppy35]

(Image removed from quote.)

 

LOL well played.  Seems to me some folks will be SAABing soon

[Karnak]

The documentation provided to the swedes is unquestionably real ... These specs were included. The Russians captured everything else it seems and AFAIK have NEVER released a single photograph or document ... but most aircraft buffs DO make the immediate association with the early MIGs upon seeing the drawing.

The specs are not flight data.  How do you not understand that?  The Ta183 never flew therefor there are only performance estimates, not actual flight data.  You are asking for a fantasy aircraft.  I can show you such estimates for many, many aircraft, some of which flew and some of which did not.  I can show you were estimates were pretty spot on and I can show you examples where the estimates were wildly off to the better or worse.  You are asking for an aircraft that never existed.  Even the prototype with a weaker engine and no guns never flew.

[Babalonian]

Karnak, what is your understanding that the Russians captured the prototypes and factory and did nothing further than utilise them as paperweights before supplying this mystical data to the Swiss?

[Karnak]

Karnak, what is your understanding that the Russians captured the prototypes and factory and did nothing further than utilise them as paperweights before supplying this mystical data to the Swiss?

I highly doubt that they completed development of the intended engine, added the intended armament and tested it.  They may, or may not have, flown the prototype.  Remember, Russian jet engines were based off of the Jumo that is in the Me262, not the more advanced engine that the Ta183 was intended to use.  The Russians didn't actually have a competitive jet engine until the Brits gave them a Rolls-Royce, which is what they used in the MiG-15.

[EVZ]

The specs are not flight data. - You are asking for a fantasy aircraft. - You are asking for an aircraft that never existed. 

First you want specs you claim don't exist, when those are provided, that's not good enough ... You got some special knowledge, You know what nobody else does ... You seen the captured documentation? Russian SPY here boys, trying to sabotage the development program at AH ... Call out the firing squad !!! 

Anyway, what - I ASKED - was in regards to a possible What If arena based on the notion the war had continued into 1946 (yes THAT's a FANTASY!!!) ... I mentioned this plane as a very likely addition for that arena and an interesting aircraft with an interesting story ... Sorry if the notion of HT doing anything YOU don't approve first is offensive.

[Butcher]

Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.

The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info. It's speculated that they were particularly tight about releasing anything regarding this aircraft because the EARLY MIG aircraft were developed from it. What is known about the design comes from 2 sources  ...  Sweden received complete development info on the aircraft thru industry contacts. The info was used extensively in designing the 1st Swedish jet, the SAAB J 29 "Tunnan." -AND- plans were smuggled out by at least one German who made it to Argentina where the plane was actually produced as the FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, after the war. It failed to be a commercial success for Argentina due to the fall of Juan Perone and the availability of CHEAP SURPLUS F-84s & F 86s after Korea.


GERMAN VERSION
Crew: one
Length: 9.20 m (30 ft 2 in)
Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
Height: ()
Wing area: 22.5 m² (242 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,380 kg (5,247 lb)
Loaded weight: 4,300 kg (9,480 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Heinkel HeS 011 turbojet, 13 kN (2,700 lbf)
Maximum speed: 955 km/h (593 mph)
Service ceiling: 14,000 m (45,932 ft)
Rate of climb: 20.4 m/s (4,020 ft/min)
Wing loading: 196 kg/m² (41 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.37
4 × 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 cannons
4 × Ruhrstahl X-4 Wire Guided AAMs or 500 kg (1,102 lb) of bombs

*Throws yellow flag* FLAG ON THE PLAY!! *talks to the other Refs

There's a flag on the play, Wikipedia is being used as a Source, Minus 20 yards and still 4th Down.

You need a better credible sources, or ask someone that might have it, without even looking I know that's wiki-nobody checks credibility-pedia.

[Tank-Ace]

Not exactly FANTASY ... There's quite a bit of info available ... if you really have any interest in it. AND it's NOT from US, GB, or USSR sources or even from GERMAN ones.

The RUSSIANS captured the factory and prototypes and never shared any info.

Anyone else notice this discrepency, and its clear implication of ignorance of the subject?

There was no Russia between 1926 and 1991. There was the Russian Federated Socialist Republic, which was part of the larger collective USSR (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, for EVZ, as he probably doesn't know the acronym). Yet he explicitly says the USSR, the place of origion for the Migs, didn't have access to the data that the Migs were suposedly based off of. He goes on to say that a defunct government (Russian Empire..... that or hes talking about the current Russian Federation) captured a German factory in WWII, during which time neither of those governments existed.

Clearly he doesn't know his subject matter. Call out the firing squad for Karnak? I say call out the truant officer to take you back to school.

[Ack-Ack]

EVZ is incorrect is claiming the Ta183 influenced the MiG 15, which it didn't.  Russian aviation historian Yefim Gordon, wrote a detailed and comprehensive book on the Russian development of the MiG 15 and showed quite clearly that, although the MiG 15 did bear a slight resemblance in layout, it was an entirely independent development.

ack-ack