HVAP what range does it become less effective than normal AP?

[curry1]

I had a sudden question when I read a post about HVAP.

Since, kinetic energy= (mv²)/2 , that is why an HVAP shell with less mass can do more damage at shorter ranges because v².  Can anybody calculate the range at which a HVAP shell becomes less effective than an AP shell?  I wish I could but I don't know how to do differential equations.  

Also I think you would need the masses of both projectiles to find this out.  I'm looking for them but haven't found any success.

[prowl3r]

cant do the equations but from expirence 1200 yds

[Reaper90]

I've always heard that HVAP was more effective out to 1000 yards, but AP carried more energy beyond that. For softer targets (M3's, M8's, 251's, M18's and M16's) the HVAP is a little better further out, and easier to hit with I've found due to the higher velocity and flatter trajectory.

[SmokinLoon]

A couple of things to think about regarding the HVAP:

Forget any formulas.  If we were speaking objects with the same area then sure, but not only are the projectiles different in weight, they differ in shape and hardness as well.

The other thing is regarding the HVAP vs "soft" skinned gv's (M3, LVT, M8, M18, etc), forget any comparison against them between the AP and HVAP, the same data applies.  Instead, compare AP vs HE.     FYI: I strongly suggest the use of HE against those "soft" skinned gv's, a near miss will blow tires, damage engines, throw tracks, or damage turrets.  Then, if need be, us an AP round to finish the job but in most cases an HE round will get the job done.

Now on to the main topic- at ranges further than 1200 yards, the AP round is better.  You can see the similarities between the AP and HVAP at 1000 yards in the data that HTC provides in the hanger (right click selected tank/TD and then on "Vehicle Armor"), but if you reference actual AP charts from WWII you will see that 1200 yards is about the threshold for both the 76mm and 85mm AP rounds to overtake the HVAP is AP ability.  NOTE: Just because the HVAP round can penetrate the armor does not mean it can do more damage internally to the tank.  I can not vouch for any of the coding, but it sure seems like I get more "no damage" hits with HVAP than I do AP.  Food for thought.   

[Rob52240]

Do the HVAP have a lighter projectile?  SOrta like going from 30-06 to 220 swift?

[SmokinLoon]

Do the HVAP have a lighter projectile?  SOrta like going from 30-06 to 220 swift?

Same caliber, different weight.  Think of the difference a .30-06 w/ a 180gr bullet vs a .30-06 w/ a 110gr bullet.  On top of that, the composition differences between the 2 projectile come in to play as well.  The density of the HVAP projectile may be harder than the AP there by making it more brittle, thereby making it less apt to penetrate are sharper angles.  Or goes at least one theory anyways.  I'm sure someone with a PhD in chemistry or metallurgy will be along shortly to add to /edit that theory.    

[715]

The BR-350P and BR-365P HVAP rounds of the T34-76 and T34-85 are both subcaliber rounds (that's what the P stands for, well in Russian anyways). 

[AKP]

Here is a nice chart on russian gun penetration.  

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.asp

76 mm M-1942 ZIS-3 (HVAP) = 92mm of armor penetration at up to 500 meters
85 mm M-1945 D-44 (HVAP) = 130mm of armor penetration at up to 1000 meters

I will note (before someone else does) that the 76mm gun I listed, is NOT the one on the T-34.  The T-34 used the 76.2 mm F-34.  But, there is no data on this chart for the 76.2 mm F-34 using the HVAP round.  However, it is probably similar.

Also... here is some more cool stuff.









A link to a page showing some better pictures of the 76mm hvap round:
http://www.specialistauctions.com/auctiondetails.php?id=1305010

From Jane's Artillery Handbook:

Development
The 76 mm BR-354P High-Velocity Armour-Piercing Tracer (HVAP-T) was the latest development in a long line of kinetic energy anti-armour projectiles, developed for the ZIS-3 field gun in accordance with the Soviet/Russian Federation doctrine that every field piece is a potential anti-armour weapon. Earlier anti-armour rounds included the AP-T BR-350, BR-350A, BR-350B and the API-T BZR-350B, none of which are now likely to be encountered.

Description
The 76 mm (actual calibre 76.2 mm) HVAP-T BR-354P is a fixed round. The projectile is rigidly fixed to the cartridge case by a 360º crimping ring, located in a cannelure close to the single pressed copper drive band which is 12.7 mm wide.The projectile is made up of five units. At the front is a light metal nose unit with a conical outline. Behind the cone is a 27.36 mm diameter tungsten core weighing 600 g which acts as the main armour penetrator. Immediately behind the pointed tungsten core, and in contact with it, is a steel element which acts as a slug to follow the tungsten core into the target; located in the base of the steel element is a tracer housing. The tungsten core and steel slug are carried in a one-piece waisted steel carrier assembly (producing the characteristic 'arrowhead' outline), the full calibre lower portion of which carries the drive band. The base of the carrier assembly forms a slight cavity. One variant of the BR-354P contained a 27.95 mm diameter tungsten core weighing only 480 g and lacked the steel follow-through slug. In this instance the projectile weight was 3.06 kg.The cartridge case is extruded brass and contains 1.3 kg of 9/7 propellant plus S-1 decoppering agent, and a distance piece and obturator to fill the gap between the propellant and the projectile base. A brass 25 mm percussion primer is threaded into the base. Muzzle velocity is 950 to 960 m/s.

No... I didnt just look all this up now  I use the T-34 almost exclusively for tanking.  And its one of the best "one shot kill" tanks in AH... as long as you are mindful of the effective range of your rounds.  The 76mm HVAP is a point blank weapon for our intents and purposes.  The table I referenced is probably about right... 500m.  The 85mm HVAP is better at 1000m effective range.  

If you look at the cut away pic above... what actually goes through the armor is the 27mm tungsten core (penetrator) and the 27mm steel slug behind it.  The casing around it shatters on impact.

I'm no expert on this... I just wanted to do some research on the effective range of the HVAP since the T-34 is my favorite AH tank.  And this is what I found on it.

[Tank-Ace]

As a rule of thumb, 1200yds. Also note that, according to the projectile strength analysis chart on the trainers page thats god only knows how out of date, HVAP does less damage to a target than regular AP does, which would make sense (lighter weight= less mass= less damage done).

But if we had HVAP for the 88mm's, or a Pershing/Slugger with HVAP, the story would be different. From the online charts I've seen, their HVAP would be more effective than AP out somewhere to around 1800-2000yds.

[SmokinLoon]

As a rule of thumb, 1200yds. Also note that, according to the projectile strength analysis chart on the trainers page thats god only knows how out of date, HVAP does less damage to a target than regular AP does, which would make sense (lighter weight= less mass= less damage done).

But if we had HVAP for the 88mm's, or a Pershing/Slugger with HVAP, the story would be different. From the online charts I've seen, their HVAP would be more effective than AP out somewhere to around 1800-2000yds.

A: the data at the AH Trainer's website if dated, be wary of what you read there, especially in terms of "weapons damage".  If you want a new and updated weapons damage sheet on ALL the weapons in AH, send me a PM.  That goes for anyone.  Butcher has the same spreadsheet on his unit's website.  You'd be surprised at what has changed over the years.

B: The damage done to an OBJ (ammo bunker, fuel tank, buildings, etc), has no correlation to the damage it does to a gv.  I'm surprised Hitech didnt beat me to this post, he quick on the draw with this kind of stuff.