I admit: I used spies...

[Ardy123]

Agreed but a plane's performance envelope is its performance envelope...To complain about someone's skill level because they choose to fly a plane with attractive flight attributes is ridiculous.  I submit for discussion that someone who can fly a K4 inside a Spit's flight envelope shouldn't be flying a Spit anyway....because he would kill EVERYTHING in sight!!!!

agreed.

Given that a spit's flight envelope fits our MA environment much better than many other planes. Its important to note that there is a huge difference between complaining about someone flying a spit and someone who is flying a spit to feel like they are 'better' than another pilot because they killed someone who chose to fight them with a plane less suited to the environment.

I think when most people complain about 'spit pilots' its because the other in some way rubbed in their face that they beat them in their spit..

example...
Pilot A = p40
Pilot B = spit 16

Pilot B kills pliot A.

Pilot B "I own you newb, go back to the TA"
Pilot A "youre in a easymode spit newb, come back to me when you learn how to fight without training wheels"


Lets face it, landing 5 kills in a p40 is much more challenging and requires greater skill than landing 5 kills in a spit 16.

[Tank-Ace]

Kinda got blown out of proportions and turned into a sort of argument.... but point is that I don't like spitfires. They're easier to fly, are everywhere, and really shouldn't be flown if you're trying to push yourself  .

[Karnak]

Easy is contextual and people ignore other types of "easy".  The other day I was flying a Spitfire Mk VIII and a Spitfire Mk IX kept running from me, even when he started with the advantage.  While my Spitfire Mk VIII was faster, it wasn't enough faster to overtake him before he could run to his base's AA.  So I grabbed a Mosquito Mk VI, something that is not usually seen as "easy mode" and I killed him with ease because when he tried to run I simply ran him down.  Compared to the Spitfire Mk VIII the Mosquito Mk VI was "easy mode" for that situation.

Many people just ignore things like speed when talking about a plane being easy or not.  Speed is just a trait of the Bf109K-4, but they act like that doesn't make it easier in some situations, like it is just an incidental part of the Bf109K-4, while the Spitfire's turning ability isn't incidental, it is "easy mode".  People focus on where their opponent is stronger than they are and forget where they are stronger than their opponent.  Because the basic beginners move is to roll a plane onto its side and pull the stick back to turn as tight as you can planes that turn well are stigmatized even though the advantage of being able to turn well is largely eroded by a skilled opponent.

[Ardy123]

Easy is contextual and people ignore other types of "easy".  The other day I was flying a Spitfire Mk VIII and a Spitfire Mk IX kept running from me, even when he started with the advantage.  While my Spitfire Mk VIII was faster, it wasn't enough faster to overtake him before he could run to his base's AA.  So I grabbed a Mosquito Mk VI, something that is not usually seen as "easy mode" and I killed him with ease because when he tried to run I simply ran him down.  Compared to the Spitfire Mk VIII the Mosquito Mk VI was "easy mode" for that situation.

Karnak, you are forgetting context again....

How long have you played this game?
How long had the other guy?

I bet you would have killed him in just about anything, provided you could get to him.

EDIT: More similarly skilled matched opponents, the plane better suited to the fight, would win.

But back to what I originally said, the initial 'e' state and position of the two planes is the single most important factor. A p40 could kill a p51, given the p40 arrived with enough alt, and dove with the sun to its back.

[EskimoJoe]

Given equal e states and equal pilots, no advantage either way, I'd be willing to bet that
the guy who knew how to fly the mossie would win every time against the guy who knew how to fly the spit.

[Tank-Ace]

Speed can help you escape combat, or initiate it, but once combat has started, speed isn't as much of an asset.

Once combat has started, the more important factors are manuverability, acceleration, and climb.


The spitfire is easier to fly in combat, because it requires less pilot skill to be sucessfull in combat, because it doesn't require you to know how to use climb, acceleration, roll, or anything other than turning to beat an opponent (as long as you aren't dumb and don't try turning with zekes or anything).

1) I don't like hordes, boring after a while, and they're the only source of a longer engagment
2) I don't like ho'ing, says virtually nothing about whos the better pilot
3) I don't like turning birds that when a less skilled pilot see you can out climb them, out roll them, or out fly them, they imediatly start the low down in the weeds turning defense

combine all 3 of those into one plane, and you get the spitfire. Easy to see why I don't like them, Sam I Am.

[EskimoJoe]

Speed can help you escape combat, or initiate it, but once combat has started, speed isn't as much of an asset.

Once combat has started, the more important factors are manuverability, acceleration, and climb.

Of course, speed doesn't affect a single one of those variables you mention. Naw, of course not.

[Melvin]

I'ze can make a 109K turn real good. And I'ze can go up reel fast. Thit's why I'ze better then the stoopid Spitfire dummys.

Get back in the game and put up or shut up Son.

[Tank-Ace]

Of course, speed doesn't affect a single one of those variables you mention. Naw, of course not.

I said its not as great of an asset, not that it isn't an asset. I swear, people don't pay attention to implyed meanings anymore  .


As for Mr Melvin over there, you seem to be one of the standard issue BBS trolls, and you just messed up a well known quote. Now of to bed there boy.

[EskimoJoe]

I see we have Krusty's prodige at hand here, boys.

[Melvin]

As for Mr. Melvin over there, you seem to be one of the standard issue BBS trolls, and you just messed up a well known quote. Now off to bed there boy.

Which quote did I mess up?

Was it the "put up or shut up" one?

Or was it the one where I called you out as the prototypical Luftwhining wiener boy that doesn't play the game, yet feels the need to interject with ridiculous ramblings?

[Changeup]

Which quote did I mess up?

Was it the "put up or shut up" one?

Or was it the one where I called you out as the prototypical Luftwhining wiener boy that doesn't play the game, yet feels the need to interject with ridiculous ramblings?

Im going with your option C.  Was I correct?

[MK-84]

On the spit issue.  I've decided I do not like it.  Here is whay.
It is not very good when super slow.
It is not very good when super fast.
It has decent, but light armament. (Ammo load, lethality)
It is not a very strong airframe (in terms of dmg taken)

So what I see is an aircraft that is ok at everything, but not really great at anything.  This (to me) makes flying it very very difficult.  You must REALLY understand your situation, and your enemies to be good in it
Last month the spit16 had a total of kills of 15822, and losses of 13554   for a K/D of 1.17  This really does not put it anywhere near the top of its class for "uber fighters"

[Karnak]

On the lethality, it may have a lightish ammo load, but the Spitfire XIV and XVI both have firepower to match the P-47's in terms of guns.

[MK-84]

On the lethality, it may have a lightish ammo load, but the Spitfire XIV and XVI both have firepower to match the P-47's in terms of guns.

No they do not

Convergence is different
Ballistic properties is different
Effect from range shots is different
ammo load is different (which certainly would effect how one fires on a target)
Did you include stability?
Did you include speeds at which each aircraft typically fires its guns?  Or it's range?  or style of flying?

These planes can not be compared. as equals.