Author Topic: F6F Hellcat  (Read 18217 times)

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #150 on: January 29, 2012, 12:40:19 PM »
I learned this from talking with an old guy who flew AU-7s (dedicated ground attack version for the marines) who knows a ton about F4U's and he said that the only ones that had a true bubble canopy were the F2G1 and F2G2.   The red one in that picture is an F2G2 that has been modified for air racing.

my bad, I was wrong regarding the F4U-1 series having any bubble canopys

it started after the F4U-1A series were in production, and lasted up into the F4U-5 models and further ....

osprey_WWII War Planes Books_Aircraft of the Aces  008 - Corsair Aces of World War II_page 90



also notice that the F4U-4 is not showing the head armor plate at the back edge of the canopy in the above page.......   

a side question:  did any corsair II  models fly in WWII?  the clipped wing versions ?

anyhows, my apologies for incorrectly posting about the F4U-1 model, earlier .....

PR3D4TOR,  I am not talking about he "P47D25 & up  or the P51D, etc"... type  tear drop bubble canopys, like what is shown on that air Racing Red F4U pic

I am refering to the F4U series type bubble canopy, verses the original Bird cage canopy, then either post war or possibly at end of war the bulging out oversized bubble canopy seen on some postwar ( or maybe late war even )  corsair models...

please correct me if I am wrong, or have incorrectly posted something......  I do not want to be misleading anyone

<S>

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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #151 on: January 29, 2012, 12:50:33 PM »
The F4U-4 in the picture is likely a post-war variant with the flat windscreen, which you can see upon careful comparison between the other F4U's there. The 'armor plate' is actually a piece of metal that was placed there to prevent the canopy from breaking upon sliding.

Most F4U-4's produced lacked the canopy plate and the curved windshield, but there were only a few of these that served in WWII. 90% of the -4 pictures I've seen have either both or just the curved windshield.

Also, the Corsair II - i.e. British F4U-1A - did enter service aboard British carriers in 1944. Wings were clipped because the F4U with its wings folded was too tall to fit inside the heavily-armored British carrier aircraft bays.
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Offline Pongo

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #152 on: January 30, 2012, 03:52:37 PM »
With the corsairs low speed handling, its well below whats documented but no one is willing to die or break a real corsair to prove its wrong so it stands.
http://youtu.be/6r9I--M7owE
Never realized the Hellcat had two position flaps.

Offline SectorNine50

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #153 on: January 30, 2012, 04:09:12 PM »
With the corsairs low speed handling, its well below whats documented but no one is willing to die or break a real corsair to prove its wrong so it stands.
http://youtu.be/6r9I--M7owE
Never realized the Hellcat had two position flaps.

Wasn't it basically any-position flaps, since they were spring-loaded and would retract and deploy depending on speed?  You could set them down, and they would basically auto-adjust, or something along those lines...
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Offline Rebel

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #154 on: January 30, 2012, 04:13:58 PM »
Wasn't it basically any-position flaps, since they were spring-loaded and would retract and deploy depending on speed?  You could set them down, and they would basically auto-adjust, or something along those lines...

Actually, it would go down to any angle up to a certain point, at which the flaps were spring loaded, the air flow being the only thing keeping them up.  

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Offline mtnman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #155 on: January 30, 2012, 06:29:29 PM »
No sane WW II fighter pilot toddled around during a dogfight with his flaps fully extended.  It was a sure way to commit suicide.  When flaps were used at all it was for only brief....very brief....periods....to evade an attacker or attain a firing solution.

This isn't limited to the F4U, it stands for every fighter in the game.  While the F4U may not be used in a "WWII realistic" manner, neither is any other fighter in AH.

Personally, I'm absolutely 100% in favor of any model-modification necessary to get the most realism possible when it comes to the F4U.  It's the only plane in AH I'm interested in flying, and I'd like it to be as realistic as possible.  Making it more difficult to fly (as long as it's realistic) would be an improvement in my opinion.  If it's as simple as restructuring the slipstream, or whatever, great!  Hopefully HTC sees it as a worthwhile improvement. 

However, it doesn't really matter in the end, because it's going to be flat-out impossible to model the F4U in a manner that will cause it to fly/fight realistically in the game.  As a matter of fact, if it is modeled "perfectly" it will fight (not necessarily fly) closer to the way it does now than to reality...  HTC would have to model it incorrectly flight model-wise to get it to fight "realistically".

That's because the capabilities of the pilot in reality vs. AH are completely different.  Personally, I think this is more important than the flight-model when it comes to "realistic" use of airplanes, and "realistic" dog-fighting strategies when it comes to a simulator.  In this case, I'm not talking about the basic G-forces effects or fatigue factors.  I'm talking about the fact that I can manipulate more controls, easier, in less time, and simultaneously, than a real pilot could.  As long as that's possible, "realistic" dog-fights and strategies aren't.

IMO, it probably isn't that the FM is way off, or that the effects of the flaps are way off.  It's more likely that the flaps and throttle (which any self-respecting F4U pilot will tell you are vital in fighting with the F4U) are able to be manipulated in an unrealistic manner, at unrealistic times, with unrealistic ease.  This leads to unrealistic fight strategies and unrealistic results.  Even if the F4U FM is flawless (which it might not be, but which also hasn't been proven in gobs and gobs of time, effort, and pages).  Oops, did I mention the gear?

Look at this cockpit.  I've circled the throttle and flap controls in red, and the gear lever in blue (and the trim in green, just for hoots).  What's wrong with this picture? 



The problem is that realistically, a pilot would never be able to manipulate the throttle and flaps at the same time.  He'd have to choose to do one or the other; switching back and forth would take time and effort (especially under G-load), and he might even have to fumble a bit to get his hand's fingers where they needed to be.  The amount of effort required would vary as well, depending upon circumstance.  How precise could he be at choosing to drop 1,2, or 3 notches of flaps in a stressful situation and under G's? 

On the other hand, I have all those controls at my fingertips, and am not experiencing any G's.  I can easily manipulate those controls all at the same time if I desire.  I can make them go back and forth, too!  Imagine how difficult it would be to make all of the small (and large) adjustments I make during a fight, if I had to do it in reality!  Moving my hand and arm back and forth between the throttle and flaps, maybe even to the trim wheel, maybe to the gear lever...  Flaps up, flaps down.  Down another notch, then up!  All the throttle tweaking at the same time (well, not in reality...).

The simple fact is that it would have been far more difficult for an actual pilot to make use of the flaps and throttle in the way I can (an do) do it with ease.  That alone would have prevented many pilots from ever "playing with" the flaps like we do in AH.  The pilot would probably have kept his hand on the throttle for the most part, and wouldn't have been all that likely to mess with flaps and get low, slow and dirty.  Especially since doing so would put him at a distinct disadvantage, and probably into a situation where he'd have been forced to impossibly manipulate his controls in an efficient "AH manner" to survive. 

This is true even if the FM for any particular plane is absolutely flawless...

But of course, if the slipstream model is incorrect, I'm hopeful it'll be fixed.  Same thing goes for the effects of torque (which I highly suspect is neutered). 

But if those do become modeled "perfectly" the planes will still be easily capable of "unrealistic" flight until the capabilities of the pilots are modeled precisely as well.  Maybe there could be a link between the amount of G's being experienced, and whether or not you could adjust flap settings?
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Offline mtnman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #156 on: January 30, 2012, 06:34:59 PM »

I know several of the top sticks are very adept at the flaps down power off turn as part of a good rolling scissors, not that they use it all the time.

in regards to using flaps down ( is this full flaps??? ) and power off while turning in a rolling scissors,  I  have to disagree with the thought of anyone doing this..... one should not be chopping throttle/throttle off in a rolling scissors battle, and one should avoid as much as possible using flaps, especially full flaps......... unless they are at the endgame / stallmate in such a rolling scissors that they have no options left..... One should want to have maximum throttle / thrust available and use the Helix and the angle of the helix to prevail in the rolling scissors.....

I've got to agree with you here TC.  Dumping power like that is something I've always seen as a kind of "beginner" mistake with the F4U.  It's definitely a bad idea. 

I've always used (and recommended using) the geometry of the maneuver to put me behind my target/attacker, rather than trying to fly slower.
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Offline xJUGGOx

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #157 on: January 30, 2012, 07:39:58 PM »
Interesting thread folks <S> here is a couple videos that I shared with my squadies.  I use the aircraft carrier take off method with elevator trim 6 notches rudder etc.  and it works rather well especially if you have a full fuel and bombs/rockets.  I dont know if these have been posted or not.  It also talks about using your gear as dive brakes. ;-) :airplane:

http://youtu.be/5J0BYq3yevs

http://youtu.be/n-PwTTQz6Zw
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Offline icepac

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #158 on: January 30, 2012, 09:08:47 PM »
Works for me after I rearm the AR234 on the CV and take back off.

Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #159 on: January 31, 2012, 01:39:51 AM »
I've got to agree with you here TC.  Dumping power like that is something I've always seen as a kind of "beginner" mistake with the F4U.  It's definitely a bad idea.  

I've always used (and recommended using) the geometry of the maneuver to put me behind my target/attacker, rather than trying to fly slower.

I didn't say that you should start by dumping power, but that you may/will need to do that against a skilled HOG driver, especially if you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 01:57:28 AM by Baumer »
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Offline Baumer

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2012, 01:57:03 AM »
xJUGGOx you are correct the Hellcat could use it's gear as a dive break. Unfortunately the landing gear animation model in Aces High can't support the gear in the trail position.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2012, 02:07:12 AM »
I've got to agree with you here TC.  Dumping power like that is something I've always seen as a kind of "beginner" mistake with the F4U.  It's definitely a bad idea

I've always used (and recommended using) the geometry of the maneuver to put me behind my target/attacker, rather than trying to fly slower.

Never flew the hog much, but I know enough to recognize that this is a correct statment. Especially when you consider that the other rides that are most able to keep with the hog in a rolling scissors fight are also usually better than average at generating E, and that the hogs (the -4 being the exception) aren't nessicarily great at this.


I can't see any benefit to flying slower just to get a shot if your opponent could walk away from you when you're actually slowed the point of having said shot.
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2012, 02:48:03 AM »
I didn't say that you should start by dumping power, but that you may/will need to do that against a skilled HOG driver, especially if you get into a prolonged rolling scissors.

I agree with this,  this is what I meant when I refered to being at the end game or stalemate in my previous post....

Heya Baumer,

I got a bunch more e-books / er books in pdf format, if you care to do some trading again, like we did before... during your gun sights thread awhile back......

shoot me a pm

TC
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Saxman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2012, 11:04:22 AM »
The problem is that realistically, a pilot would never be able to manipulate the throttle and flaps at the same time.  He'd have to choose to do one or the other; switching back and forth would take time and effort (especially under G-load), and he might even have to fumble a bit to get his hand's fingers where they needed to be.  The amount of effort required would vary as well, depending upon circumstance.  How precise could he be at choosing to drop 1,2, or 3 notches of flaps in a stressful situation and under G's? 

Just wanted to randomly throw out there that like the Hellcat, the Corsair's flaps were spring-loaded and could be set at a particular angle prior to entering a fight, then would blow back up or redeploy on their own as airspeed increased and decreased. So while a historical Corsair pilot couldn't manually manipulate his flaps and throttle the way we do, in some ways he actually had an ADVANTAGE since he could "set and forget" his flaps and not even worry about manually doing so....
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Offline mtnman

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Re: F6F Hellcat
« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2012, 07:27:52 PM »
Just wanted to randomly throw out there that like the Hellcat, the Corsair's flaps were spring-loaded and could be set at a particular angle prior to entering a fight, then would blow back up or redeploy on their own as airspeed increased and decreased. So while a historical Corsair pilot couldn't manually manipulate his flaps and throttle the way we do, in some ways he actually had an ADVANTAGE since he could "set and forget" his flaps and not even worry about manually doing so....

Good point, TC.  I thought about adding that too, but forgot.

Do you know whether that would work at each and every flap setting?

In reality, that would probably be an advantage for us in AH, but less-so for a pilot in RL, and probably a detriment at times. 

The reason I say that is I've never entered a fight in AH where I said "OK, I'm going to use 4 notches of flaps for this fight", and then followed through with that.  In RL, if the pilot "pre-set" his flaps for "x" notches, and then found partway through the fight that this was an error, he'd have to let go of the throttle and reach for the flaps.

Regardless of whether he could or not, it would take longer and be more difficult than it is for any pilot in AH to do that.  There are plenty of circumstances where my speed may allow me to use more notches than the situation dictates.  In that case, having them "auto-deploy" to a speed-governed setting could be a detriment.  They may deploy to 3 notches "automatically" as my speed drops (because I pre-set them there) but I may be in a situation where I'm actually trying to hold or even build speed.  Having them move from the 2-notch area to the 3-notch area while I want to accelerate would NOT be an advantage.

In a case like that "pre-setting" flaps could easily "lock" me into a fight strategy in RL, or at least make it more difficult and/or more time consuming to change my strategy at a moments notice.  As we all know, those in-close, tight, and slow fights can be decided by a very tiny margin, and somebody who takes too long to mentally recognize and physically react is at a real disadvantage.

Sure, as speed would build in RL, the flaps would "blow up" (just as they do in AH).  However, I personally strive to adjust mine before they blow up in AH, because that little edge in accel may mean all the difference...

So, I'd argue that the ease with which I can manipulate my various controls gives my AH corsair an advantage over a spring-loaded flap equipped RL corsair.  I can quickly/easily adapt and or change my wing configuration (and can do it many times in a fight) which is something that would be more difficult for an actual pilot.

That gives me much more "freedom" than I would have in just the control aspects.  Add to that the "freedom" I enjoy when it comes to NOT feeling any G's, getting tired, or fearing for my life...

With the "pre-set" option in RL, it would be dangerous to get over-zealous in pre-setting flaps, so there would be good, sound reason to limit yourself to only a few notches.  That alone could explain why it may have been uncommon for an actual F4U pilot to be dropping 5 notches and pulling many of the maneuvers that are "normal" in AH.  We simply have more control over our planes in AH, and more freedom to exercise that control.

And of course, it isn't limited to the F4U's...

Just because the real plane (machine) may be capable of doing something (or flying a certain way at a certain speed) does NOT mean it would be possible for that machine to do that while being piloted by an actual pilot.  Many (if not most) machines are capable of far more than they achieve at the hands of humans.
MtnMan

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