Author Topic: P-38 & The Yoke  (Read 13124 times)

Offline MK-84

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Re: P-38 & The Yoke
« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2012, 05:14:39 AM »
FYI keeping both engines off will greatly reduce your range.  Dramatically so.


Why would the pilots keep both engines running in transit then if it apparently has decent one engine performance?  That doesnt make sense to me. :headscratch:

wouldnt the drag more than make up for the difference in fuel consumption?

The reason I ask is if it was true...why wasn't that used in "safe" transit ares to a combat site?

Offline clerick

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Re: P-38 & The Yoke
« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2012, 07:37:55 AM »
Why would the pilots keep both engines running in transit then if it apparently has decent one engine performance?  That doesnt make sense to me. :headscratch:

wouldnt the drag more than make up for the difference in fuel consumption?

The reason I ask is if it was true...why wasn't that used in "safe" transit ares to a combat site?

you're toolin around on one engine and spot a schwarm. What do you do? Pray it fires up after being in the freezing, high altitude air. Then, you let it warm up to operating temperature. In the mean time,  190 drops on your 6 and *POOF*!! Your plane looks like Dan was at the controls.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 & The Yoke
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2012, 10:48:28 AM »
Why would the pilots keep both engines running in transit then if it apparently has decent one engine performance?  That doesnt make sense to me. :headscratch:

wouldnt the drag more than make up for the difference in fuel consumption?

The reason I ask is if it was true...why wasn't that used in "safe" transit ares to a combat site?


Most pilots were shot down on the "bounce".

It is not "easy" or "sure" to get a restart.

The P-38 had complex control systems, that the War Production Board would not approve of replacement during production.

Here's why you don't fly on one engine unless you have to in order to survive:

For context, we present a previously unpublished letter from the Commanding Officer of the 20th Fighter Group, to the 8th Air Force Headquarters. The letter spells out the problems faced by the P-38 Groups in clear, unambiguous terms.


20th Fighter Group Headquarters
APO 637 U.S. Army
(E-2)

3 June 1944

Subject: P-38 Airplane in Combat.

To: Commanding General, VIII Fighter Command, APO 637, U.S. Army.

1. The following observations are being put in writing by the undersigned at the request of the Commanding General, VII FC. They are intended purely as constructive criticism and are intended in any way to "low rate" our present equipment.

2. After flying the P-38 for a little over one hundred hours on combat missions it is my belief that the airplane, as it stands now, is too complicated for the 'average' pilot. I want to put strong emphasis on the word 'average, taking full consideration just how little combat training our pilots have before going on as operational status.

3. As a typical case to demonstrate my point, let us assume that we have a pilot fresh out of flying school with about a total of twenty-five hours in a P-38, starting out on a combat mission. He is on a deep ramrod, penetration and target support to maximum endurance. He is cruising along with his power set at maximum economy. He is pulling 31" Hg and 2100 RPM. He is auto lean and running on external tanks. His gun heater is off to relieve the load on his generator, which frequently gives out (under sustained heavy load). His sight is off to save burning out the bulb. His combat switch may or may not be on. Flying along in this condition, he suddenly gets "bounced", what to do flashes through his mind. He must turn, he must increase power and get rid of those external tanks and get on his main. So, he reaches down and turns two stiff, difficult gas switches {valves} to main - turns on his drop tank switches, presses his release button, puts the mixture to auto rich (two separate and clumsy operations), increases his RPM, increases his manifold pressure, turns on his gun heater switch (which he must feel for and cannot possibly see), turns on his combat switch and he is ready to fight. At this point, he has probably been shot down or he has done one of several things wrong. Most common error is to push the throttles wide open before increasing RPM. This causes detonation and subsequent engine failure. Or, he forgets to switch back to auto rich, and gets excessive cylinder head temperature with subsequent engine failure.

4. In my limited experience with a P-38 group, we have lost as least four (4) pilots, who when bounced, took no immediate evasive action. The logical assumption is that they were so busy in the cockpit, trying to get organized that they were shot down before they could get going.

5. The question that arises is, what are you going to do about it? It is standard procedure for the group leader to call, five minutes before R/V and tell all the pilots to "prepare for trouble". This is the signal for everyone to get into auto rich, turn drop tank switches on, gun heaters on, combat and sight switches on and to increase RPM and manifold pressure to maximum cruise. This procedure, however, does not help the pilot who is bounced on the way in and who is trying to conserve his gasoline and equipment for the escort job ahead.

6. What is the answer to these difficulties? During the past several weeks we have been visited at this station time and time again by Lockheed representatives, Allison representatives and high ranking Army personnel connected with these two companies. They all ask about our troubles and then proceed to tell us about the marvelous mechanisms that they have devised to overcome these troubles that the Air Force has turned down as "unnecessary". Chief among these is a unit power control, incorporating an automatic manifold pressure regulator, which will control power, RPM and mixture by use of a single lever. It is obvious that there is a crying need for a device like that in combat.

7. It is easy to understand why test pilots, who have never been in combat, cannot readily appreciate what each split second means when a "bounce" occurs. Every last motion when you get bounced is just another nail in your coffin. Any device which would eliminate any of the enumerated above, are obviously very necessary to make the P-38 a really effective combat airplane.

8. It is also felt that that much could done to simplify the gas switching system in this airplane. The switches {valve selector handles} are all in awkward positions and extremely hard to turn. The toggle switches for outboard tanks are almost impossible to operate with gloves on.

9. My personal feeling about this airplane is that it is a fine piece of equipment, and if properly handled, takes a back seat for nothing that the enemy can produce. But it does need simplifying to bring it within the capabilities of the 'average' pilot. I believe that pilots like Colonel Ben Kelsey and Colonel Cass Huff are among the finest pilots in the world today. But I also believe that it is difficult for men like them to place their thinking and ability on the level of a youngster with a bare 25 hours in the airplane, going into his first combat. That is the sort of thinking that will have to be done, in my opinion, to make the P-38 a first-class all around fighting airplane.

HAROLD J. RAU
Colonel, Air Corps,
Commanding.


The above was taken from an outstanding article once found on Widewing's fabulous website, and written by Dr. Carlo Kopp, with help from Widewing, Captain Art Heiden, Captain Stan Richardson, and others. I actually spent a great deal of time with both Art and Stan via email, they are incredible guys, two of my friends who are also two of my heroes.

For those who wonder about the truth regarding the P-38 on one engine, here is what Stan said, in the same article:

Captain Stan Richardson of the 55th Fighter Group recalls some of his experiences as an instructor (before his tour with the 55th) at a stateside RTU.

The airplane was a "dream" on single-engine. While I was instructing in P-38's at Muroc AAF, on occasion the instructor and three students (four ship flight) would each feather the right propeller (remember, only a single generator, and that on the left engine) for a "tail chase" which included loops, slow and barrel rolls, and just generally having a good time. The exercise was to instill confidence in the pilots ability to control the aircraft on one engine. My area of "expertise" while instructing at Muroc was single-engine demo's in a piggyback P-38. Take-off on two engines, feather the right engine shortly after take-off. Climb to 10,000'. Demonstrate various emergency procedures (landing gear and flap extension), propeller operation in fixed pitch (simulating electrical failure), high speed stalls, a loop, a roll or two, then return to the airfield for landing on one engine. Make a typical fighter approach on the deck, pitch out, drop the landing gear, then some flaps, finally full flaps and plunk it onto the runway.

For a short period in my life flying P-38's I had as much time on one engine as I did on two. Keep in mind that most of my P-38 flying occurred just after my 20th birthday. Some of my P-38 combat time was while I was a 20 year old snot-nosed kid. No brains, lotsa luck. Gad! I love that bird.....

It was a dandy flying machine in instrument conditions associated with poor weather. I had to return once from Berlin on one engine. No problem."



The entire article can be found here now: http://www.ausairpower.net/P-38-Analysis.html#mozTocId251906 It is required reading for anyone desiring to know the absolute gospel on what the P-38 really did, and how good it really was, it is an excellent aircraft, and did an incredible job.

The loss of Widewing's website was a really big loss, indeed.

His article on the incredible P-38K is found here: http://www.456fis.org/P-38K.htm

The interesting thing about that is, the P-38K would have entered combat at about the time the P-38J did. Not only that, the next step would have been four blade propellers, and after that, they could have easily used the G series V1710 Allison, which made nearly as much power as the F series, without the turbocharger, I can tell you that adding a turbocharger to the G series creates an unholy monster (we swapped two G series engines in place of two F series engines, leaving the turbochargers in place, on a pulling tractor once). A P-38 with four blade Hamilton Standard High Activity Paddle props and an easy 2000HP per engine would only have been limited by "critical mach" at altitudes, limiting dive and top speeds, but the climb rate and the ability to sustain speed and energy, even in a tight turn, as well as accelerate if caught slow, would be amazing indeed.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe