Nothing to see here, move along

[Penguin]

See Rules #4, #14

[MachFly]

This brings me to my point, how can we teach the fact of history being a series of disastrous snafus and brutal devastation punctuated by brief shining moments of progress without scaring the little kids too much? 

-Penguin

You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.

[Rino]

     Have fun learning about the evil white man 

[Penguin]

You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.

Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course).  I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking.  A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.

     Have fun learning about the evil white man 

Did I say that white people were evil?

-Penguin

[Melvin]

You can't. That's the real world and at some point those "little kids" must face it.

^^^ This.

Also, at some point I believe it becomes the responsibility of the Parent/Guardian to inform the children about the ways of the world. This includes not only the goodness worldwide, but also the evil and stupidity that humans are capable of.

My Mother never wanted me to view certain graphic images or be allowed into discussions of certain topics at a young age due to the fact that she wished to shield me from violence.

Fortunately, my Father had no such reservations. I learned early what war and hatred were all about. I think this allowed me to view such topics with far more realism than many of my classmates. By the time we learned about these things in class I was already informed and was able to grasp the concepts with a more mature understanding.

It didn't save me from being kicked out of History class a time or two  but that had more to do with my weakness for the fairer sex, and contempt for authority.

[MachFly]

Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course).  I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking.  A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.

Teaching people of the major mistakes in history is a lot more important so they would not happen again. When teaching history you can't just exclude the unpleasant stuff.

[uptown]

you're full of crap. every sentence you typed was dribbling uninformed babble and your question is silly.

the shining moments of this country as you describe them, far outway the mistakes a brand new country starting off will make on the way to becoming a great nation. lighten up on our 300 and some year old country will ya!? Far older, more well established nations took part in the slave trade as well. Spain, Italy, Portugal....as well as several warring African countries or tribes.
Everyone knows slavery is wrong in these times, but those were completely different times back then and the founders of this country did what they had to do, to prosper in the worlds trade market. Sad but true.
Every country makes mistakes. It's how they bounce back from them that make nations great. Be proud of your country.

The Americas pervaded genocide, conquest and exploitation up until the 1840s? Is that what you said? That's untrue on every level.


tell the kids the truth. we ain't half bad compared to the other 95% out there. teach my children that instead of the crap you're being taught. Comparing slavery to the Holocaust is comparing apples to oranges .

[saggs]

... fact of history being a series of disastrous snafus and brutal devastation punctuated by brief shining moments of progress without scaring the little kids too much? 

-Penguin

I think you're being overly pessimistic here.  Every day all across the globe billions of good people wake up, and go about there business in an honest manner, helping others and making positive contributions to society.   Hardly any of these people will kill somebody, or rob somebody, or participate in genocide,  or plot some evil scheme in their heart.  These people and their everyday actions, which are the vast majority never make it into the history books.

The history books are filled with the minority, the very fact something is in a history book is because they are events or people which fall outside of the norm.  The history books are never going to talk about the average everyday Joe or Jose or Mohamed, of which at least 95% are decent good people who live their whole life in a positive manner and therefore die in general anonymity.

Out of all the people you've met in your lifetime what percentage of them do you suppose are murderers, or thieves or scam artists, vs how many are honest, good people.   Sure we may disagree on politics or religion, but 90% of the world strives to follow same basic code of morality. It's the other 10% that usually makes the history books.

If you only read history, only look at those great and terrible events, then you could be forgiven for thinking the world is a terrible cesspool of a place.  But for those that actually go out and life in and experience the world, it is the billions of little everyday things which taken together make up the real picture.

Of course we need to teach kids history, and never sugar-coat it.  But kids should also learn in the home and everyday life the other side of the story, that is how to live positively, and most do.

[Penguin]

I think you're being overly pessimistic here.  Every day all across the globe billions of good people wake up, and go about there business in an honest manner, helping others and making positive contributions to society.   Hardly any of these people will kill somebody, or rob somebody, or participate in genocide,  or plot some evil scheme in their heart.  These people and their everyday actions, which are the vast majority never make it into the history books.

The history books are filled with the minority, the very fact something is in a history book is because they are events or people which fall outside of the norm.  The history books are never going to talk about the average everyday Joe or Jose or Mohamed, of which at least 95% are decent good people who live their whole life in a positive manner and therefore die in general anonymity.

Out of all the people you've met in your lifetime what percentage of them do you suppose are murderers, or thieves or scam artists, vs how many are honest, good people.   Sure we may disagree on politics or religion, but 90% of the world strives to follow same basic code of morality. It's the other 10% that usually makes the history books.

If you only read history, only look at those great and terrible events, then you could be forgiven for thinking the world is a terrible cesspool of a place.  But for those that actually go out and life in and experience the world, it is the billions of little everyday things which taken together make up the real picture.

Of course we need to teach kids history, and never sugar-coat it.  But kids should also learn in the home and everyday life the other side of the story, that is how to live positively, and most do.

I agree with you, and that's why I said history, as opposed to the world at large.  Things are looking better every day as women are liberated from their houses and modern medicine saves millions from disease.  On average, I suspect about 0.01 percent of my town has a record of felonies or violent crime, though (we had a pedophile priest and a rapist clown).  My point is that many important events (Clovis point, the discovery of 0, and the development of the scientific method) good and bad alike, never get told, in favor of Breed's hill reenacments and grueling five-day reviews of Henry Hudson's travels.  However, positive thinking has its place as well, and fits nicely with a history of science.

-Penguin

[Dichotomy]

Peng

read, read, read, read, read, then read some more. Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it and all

[B-17]

Hmm, perhaps what I proposed is a bit heavy, but even without that, I think there is a way to teach man's descent from the trees (Paleolithic) , his domestication of animals (Neolithic), and the development of thought throughout the ages (across the world, of course).  I think a history of math and philosophy would be a good start, and eliminating the rather one-sided Revolution reenactments would help to give kids the global perspective they are well capable of taking.  A good example of such a global perspective would be teaching how China became the most advanced civilisation of the 15th century, and how the Gupta's and Arabs advanved mathematics significantly.

Did I say that white people were evil?

-Penguin

He didn't; it's just that so many people refuse/don't know about the white civilizations failures and lapses in humanity.

I think that one of the largest problems nowadays is that children/young people are babied and coddled so much that the truth is regarded as "bad." Whether it actually is or not is out of the question. I also realize that it depends much on where one lives. Also remember that history was written by the victors.

[Tac]

The Americas pervaded genocide, conquest and exploitation up until the 1840s? Is that what you said? That's untrue on every level.

Err... its quite true. From the arrival of the british colonists to the foundation of the united states to the expansion to the west coast is a constant process of genocide (native populations), conquest (again, native populations) and exploitation (initially native populations until they were practically wiped out followed by the black slaves followed by the exploitation of the initial waves of immigrants up the late 1800's)

The genocide and conquest portions were aggressively pursued by the US gov. in those times until there was nothing more to conquer and no more native populations to exterminate to the point where they could not resist the theft of their land.

tell the kids the truth. we ain't half bad compared to the other 95% out there. teach my children that instead of the crap you're being taught. Comparing slavery to the Holocaust is comparing apples to oranges .

No, its not half as bad as others out there but it still does not make it right in any way or form. Slavery was worse than the holocaust if you're adding up dead, suffering and amount of people victimized by it...the only difference is it wasn't recorded on camera and slaves were at the time considered subhuman by everyone (in contrast to jewish people in ww2 being white and considered subhuman only by a few of the participant nations of WW2).

I agree with you that one should teach the kids the whole truth without sugar coating it. Teach them both the horrors and the great achievements...its the truth after all.

[Penguin]

Yes, just be careful on the details with the gory stuff, it can and will warp their minds if they see too much, too often.

-Penguin

[Melvin]

Yes, just be careful on the details with the gory stuff, it can and will warp their minds if they see too much, too often.

-Penguin

My Dad took me to see Platoon at the Tivoli Theatre in Downers Grove IL. when I was in middle school.

My Mom cried when she found out.

It was a formative experience in my life.

[EskimoJoe]

Saving Pvt. Ryan when I was 9 or 10. Loved it.